From owner-public@setileague.org Thu Sep 1 13:45:38 2005 Received: from seti1.setileague.org (seti1.setileague.org [204.176.91.10]) by Sentry.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j81Djcsa002858 for ; Thu, 1 Sep 2005 13:45:38 GMT Received: (from majordom@localhost) by seti1.setileague.org (8.9.3 (PHNE_24419+JAGae58098)/8.9.3) id JAA04027 for public-list; Thu, 1 Sep 2005 09:37:14 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: seti1.setileague.org: majordom set sender to owner-public@seti1.setileague.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (bay103-f14.bay103.hotmail.com [65.54.174.24]) by seti1.setileague.org (8.9.3 (PHNE_24419+JAGae58098)/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA04023; Thu, 1 Sep 2005 09:37:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 1 Sep 2005 06:36:40 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 65.54.174.200 by by103fd.bay103.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 01 Sep 2005 13:36:39 GMT X-Originating-IP: [65.54.174.200] X-Originating-Email: [ljk4@msn.com] X-Sender: ljk4@msn.com From: "LARRY KLAES" To: public@setileague.org Cc: bioastro@setileague.org Subject: SETI public: Planetesimal Formation without Thresholds I and II Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 09:36:39 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Sep 2005 13:36:40.0659 (UTC) FILETIME=[2F2EF230:01C5AEFA] Sender: owner-public@setileague.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on Sentry.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.5 tests=MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER autolearn=failed version=3.0.4 Paper: astro-ph/0508659 Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 20:28:18 GMT (56kb) Title: Planetesimal Formation without Thresholds. I: Dissipative Gravitational Instabilities and Particle Stirring by Turbulence Authors: Andrew N. Youdin (Princeton University) Comments: 10 pages, 4 figures, submitted to ApJ \\ We analyze the gravitational collapse of solids subject to gas drag in a protoplanetary disk. We also study the stirring of solids by turbulent fluctuations to determine the velocity dispersion and thickness of the midplane particle layer. The usual thresholds for determining gravitational instability in disks, Toomre's criterion and/or the Roche density, do not apply. Dissipation of angular momentum allows instability at longer wavelengths, lower densities, and higher velocity dispersions than without drag. Small solids will slowly leak into axisymmetric rings since initial collapse occurs over many orbits. Growth is fastest when particle stopping times are comparable to orbital times. Our analysis of particle stirring by turbulence is consistent with previous results for tightly coupled particles, but is generalized to loose coupling where epicyclic motions contribute to random velocities. A companion paper applies these results to turbulent protoplanetary disks. \\ ( http://arXiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0508659 , 56kb) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ \\ Paper: astro-ph/0508662 Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 20:15:31 GMT (57kb) Title: Planetesimal Formation without Thresholds. II: Gravitational Instability of Solids in Turbulent Protoplanetary Disks Authors: Andrew N. Youdin (Princeton University) Comments: 9 pages, 8 figures, submitted to ApJ \\ We show that small solids in low mass, turbulent protoplanetary disks collect into self-gravitating rings. Growth is faster than disk lifetimes and radial drift times for moderately strong turbulence, characterized by dimensionless diffusivities, $\alpha_g < 10^{-6} -- 10^{-3}$ when particles are mm-sized. This range reflects a strong dependance on disk models. Growth is faster for higher particle surface densities. Lower gas densities and larger solids also give faster growth, as long as aerodynamic coupling is tight. In simple power law models, growth is slowest around ~0.3 AU, where drag coupling is strongest for mm-sized solids. Growth is much faster close to the star where orbital times are short, with implications for in situ formation of short period extrasolar planets. Growth times also decrease toward the outer disk where lower gas densities allow greater particle settling. Beyond roughly Kuiper Belt distances however, solids are sufficiently decoupled from gas that dissipative gravitational instabilities are less effective. Turbulence not only slows growth, but also increases radial wavelengths. The initial solid mass in an unstable ring can be ~0.01 M_Earth or greater, huge compared to km-sized planetesimals. Nonlinear fragmentation, which has not been studied in detail, will lower the final planetesimal mass. We consider applications to the asteroid belt and discuss the alternate hypothesis of collisional agglomeration. \\ ( http://arXiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0508662 , 57kb) From owner-public@setileague.org Thu Sep 1 14:03:43 2005 Received: from seti1.setileague.org (seti1.setileague.org [204.176.91.10]) by Sentry.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j81E3g4S002968 for ; Thu, 1 Sep 2005 14:03:42 GMT Received: (from majordom@localhost) by seti1.setileague.org (8.9.3 (PHNE_24419+JAGae58098)/8.9.3) id JAA04601 for public-list; Thu, 1 Sep 2005 09:54:20 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: seti1.setileague.org: majordom set sender to owner-public@seti1.setileague.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (bay103-f18.bay103.hotmail.com [65.54.174.28]) by seti1.setileague.org (8.9.3 (PHNE_24419+JAGae58098)/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA04596; Thu, 1 Sep 2005 09:54:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 1 Sep 2005 06:53:46 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 65.54.174.200 by by103fd.bay103.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 01 Sep 2005 13:53:45 GMT X-Originating-IP: [65.54.174.200] X-Originating-Email: [ljk4@msn.com] X-Sender: ljk4@msn.com From: "LARRY KLAES" To: public@setileague.org Cc: bioastro@setileague.org Subject: SETI public: The stability of the terrestrial planets with a more massive "Earth" Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 09:53:45 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Sep 2005 13:53:46.0257 (UTC) FILETIME=[927CC810:01C5AEFC] Sender: owner-public@setileague.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on Sentry.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.5 tests=MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER autolearn=failed version=3.0.4 Paper: astro-ph/0508670 Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 08:54:30 GMT (630kb) Title: The stability of the terrestrial planets with a more massive "Earth" Authors: \'Aron S\"uli, Rudolf Dvorak and Florian Freistetter Comments: 11 pages, 12 figures, submitted to MNRAS \\ Although the long-term numerical integrations of planetary orbits indicate that our planetary system is dynamically stable at least +/- Gyr, the dynamics of our Solar System includes both chaotic and stable motions: the large planets exhibit remarkable stability on gigayear timescales, while the subsystem of the terrestrial planets is weekly chaotic with a maximum Lyapunov exponent reaching the value of 1/5 Myr. In this paper the dynamics of the Sun--Venus--Earth--Mars-Jupiter--Saturn model is studied, where the mass of Earth was magnified via a mass factor $\kappa_E$. The resulting systems dominated by a massive Earth may serve also as models for exoplanetary systems that are similar to our one. This work is a continuation of our previous study, where the same model was used and the masses of the inner planets were uniformly magnified. That model was found to be substantially stable against the mass growth. Our simulations were undertaken for more then 100 different values of K for a time of 20, in some cases for 100 Myrs. A major result was the appearance of an instability window at K = 5, where Mars escaped. This new result has important implications for the theories of the planetary system formation process and mechanism. It is shown that with increasing K the system splits into two, well separated subsystems: one consists of the inner, the other one consists of the outer planets. According to the results the model became more stable as K increases and only when K >= 540 Mars escaped, on a Myr timescale. We found an interesting protection mechanism for Venus. These results give insights also to the stability of the habitable zone of exoplanetary systems, which harbour planets with relatively small eccentricities and inclinations. \\ ( http://arXiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0508670 , 630kb) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ \\ Paper: astro-ph/0508671 Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 09:10:52 GMT (354kb) Title: Numerical simulations of type I planetary migration in nonturbulent magnetized discs Authors: Sebastien Fromang, Caroline Terquem, Richard P. Nelson Comments: 17 pages, 12 figures, accepted in MNRAS. A version with full resolution, colour figures is available at http://www.maths.qmul.ac.uk/~rpn/preprints/ \\ Using 2D MHD numerical simulations performed with two different finite difference Eulerian codes, we analyze the effect that a toroidal magnetic field has on low mass planet migration in nonturbulent protoplanetary discs. The presence of the magnetic field modifies the waves that can propagate in the disc. In agreement with a recent linear analysis (Terquem 2003), we find that two magnetic resonances develop on both sides of the planet orbit, which contribute to a significant global torque. In order to measure the torque exerted by the disc on the planet, we perform simulations in which the latter is either fixed on a circular orbit or allowed to migrate. For a 5 earth mass planet, when the ratio \beta between the square of the sound speed and that of the Alfven speed at the location of the planet is equal to 2, we find inward migration when the magnetic field B_{\phi} is uniform in the disc, reduced migration when B_{\phi} decreases as r^{-1} and outward migration when B_{\phi} decreases as r^{-2}. These results are in agreement with predictions from the linear analysis. Taken as a whole, our results confirm that even a subthermal stable field can stop inward migration of an earth--like planet. \\ ( http://arXiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0508671 , 354kb) From owner-public@setileague.org Thu Sep 1 14:05:01 2005 Received: from seti1.setileague.org (seti1.setileague.org [204.176.91.10]) by Sentry.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j81E517g002978 for ; Thu, 1 Sep 2005 14:05:01 GMT Received: (from majordom@localhost) by seti1.setileague.org (8.9.3 (PHNE_24419+JAGae58098)/8.9.3) id JAA04651 for public-list; Thu, 1 Sep 2005 09:55:49 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: seti1.setileague.org: majordom set sender to owner-public@seti1.setileague.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (bay103-f10.bay103.hotmail.com [65.54.174.20]) by seti1.setileague.org (8.9.3 (PHNE_24419+JAGae58098)/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA04647; Thu, 1 Sep 2005 09:55:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 1 Sep 2005 06:55:15 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 65.54.174.200 by by103fd.bay103.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 01 Sep 2005 13:55:15 GMT X-Originating-IP: [65.54.174.200] X-Originating-Email: [ljk4@msn.com] X-Sender: ljk4@msn.com From: "LARRY KLAES" To: public@setileague.org Cc: bioastro@setileague.org Subject: SETI public: Disks and Planets Around Massive White Dwarfs Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2005 09:55:15 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Sep 2005 13:55:15.0791 (UTC) FILETIME=[C7DA95F0:01C5AEFC] Sender: owner-public@setileague.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on Sentry.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.5 tests=MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER autolearn=failed version=3.0.4 Paper: astro-ph/0508678 Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 13:10:47 GMT (15kb) Title: Disks and Planets Around Massive White Dwarfs Authors: M. Livio (Space Telescope, Univ. of St. Andrews), J. E. Pringle (Univ. of St. Andrews, Inst. of Astronomy), K. Wood (Univ. of St. Andrews) Comments: 8 pages, 1 figure; accepted ApJL Report-no: ST ScI Eprint #1678 \\ We predict the existence of dusty disks and possibly CO planets around massive white dwarfs. We show that the thermal emission from these disks should be detectable in the infrared. The planets may also be detectable either by direct IR imaging, spectroscopy, or using the pulsations of the white dwarfs. \\ ( http://arXiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0508678 , 15kb) Paper: astro-ph/0508691 Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 18:49:23 GMT (442kb) Title: Simulating the boundary layer between a white dwarf and its accretion disc Authors: Jacob Lund Fisker & Dinshaw S. Balsara Comments: 8 pages, 2 figures \\ We describe the results of numerical simulations of the dynamics of the boundary layer (BL) between the accretion disk and the surface of a non-magnetic white dwarf (WD) for different viscosities which corresponds to different stages for dwarf novae burst cycles. The simulations cover the inner part of the accretion disk, the BL, and the upper atmosphere of the star. The high viscosity case, which corresponds to a dwarf nova in outburst, shows a optically thick BL which after one Keplerian rotation period ($t_K$=19s) extends up to 20-25 degrees to either side of the disk plane. The BL is optically thick and thus occludes part of the star. The low viscosity case, which corresponds to a dwarf nova in quiescense, also shows a BL, but it is optically thin. \\ ( http://arXiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0508691 , 442kb) From owner-public@setileague.org Fri Sep 2 16:04:18 2005 Received: from seti1.setileague.org (seti1.setileague.org [204.176.91.10]) by Sentry.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j82G0N08000937 for ; Fri, 2 Sep 2005 16:04:18 GMT Received: (from majordom@localhost) by seti1.setileague.org (8.9.3 (PHNE_24419+JAGae58098)/8.9.3) id LAA14583 for public-list; Fri, 2 Sep 2005 11:26:45 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: seti1.setileague.org: majordom set sender to owner-public@seti1.setileague.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (bay103-f26.bay103.hotmail.com [65.54.174.36]) by seti1.setileague.org (8.9.3 (PHNE_24419+JAGae58098)/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA14510; Fri, 2 Sep 2005 11:24:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 2 Sep 2005 08:24:09 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 65.54.174.200 by by103fd.bay103.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 02 Sep 2005 15:24:08 GMT X-Originating-IP: [65.54.174.200] X-Originating-Email: [ljk4@msn.com] X-Sender: ljk4@msn.com From: "LARRY KLAES" To: bioastro@setileague.org Cc: public@setileague.org Subject: SETI public: FW: How Space Elevators Will Work 09/01/05 Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2005 11:24:08 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Sep 2005 15:24:09.0248 (UTC) FILETIME=[5D414A00:01C5AFD2] Sender: owner-public@setileague.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on Sentry.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.5 tests=MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER autolearn=failed version=3.0.4 >From: HowStuffWorks >Reply-To: contact@newsletter.howstuffworks.com >To: ljk4@msn.com >Subject: How Space Elevators Will Work 09/01/05 >Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 01:10:18 -0400 (EDT) > >What's New at HowStuffWorks! >September 01, 2005 >http://www.howstuffworks.com > >Hello, ! > >New at HowStuffWorks: > >How Space Elevators Will Work > >When the Space Shuttle Columbia lifted off on April 12, 1981, >from Kennedy Space Center, Fla., to begin the first space >shuttle mission, the dream of a reusable spacecraft was >realized. Since then, NASA has launched more than 100 missions, >but the price tag of space missions has changed little. Whether >it is the space shuttle or the non-reusable Russian spacecraft, >the cost of a launch is approximately $10,000 per pound ($22,000 >per kg). > >While the space shuttle is reusable, missions are still very >infrequent and expensive, with each launch costing an estimated >half a billion dollars. A new space transportation system being >developed could make travel to Geostationary Earth Orbit (GEO) a >daily event and transform the global economy. > >A space elevator made of a carbon nanotubes composite ribbon >anchored to an offshore sea platform would stretch to a small >counterweight approximately 62,000 miles (100,000 km) into >space. Mechanical lifters attached to the ribbon would then >climb the ribbon, carrying cargo and humans into space, at a >price of only about $100 to $400 per pound ($220 to $880 per >kg). > >In this article, we'll take a look at how the idea of a space >elevator is moving out of science fiction and into reality. > >Click here to read How Space Elevators Will Work: >http://www.howstuffworks.com/space-elevator.htm > >********************************************************** > >Want a few million extra pairs of eyes looking at your Web site? >Find out how you can place your link on the HowStuffWorks >article of your choice for maximum exposure. Click here for more >information: > >http://www.howstuffworks.com/hsw.php?s=2679 > >********************************************************** > > >HowStuffWorks Market Research: > >If you enjoy speaking your mind, and you're interested in shaping >how companies do business, you'll really like the new HowStuffWorks >market research program. It's a fun and easy way to get your opinions >to the people who matter. And just to sweeten the deal, we'll pay you >to participate. For every survey you complete, we'll pay you $2 through >PayPal. Click here to find out how it works: > > http://www.howstuffworks.com/mkt-research-help.htm > >------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Have fun! > >Sincerely, >HowStuffWorks >contact@howstuffworks.com > >PS - If you have friends who would enjoy HowStuffWorks as much as you >do, please feel free to forward this e-mail to them to tell them about >HowStuffWorks! > >------------------------------------------------------------------- > >HowStuffWorks, Inc. >3350 Peachtree Road >Suite 1500 >Atlanta, GA 30326 >http://www.howstuffworks.com >Copyright ©1998-2004 by HowStuffWorks, Inc. All rights reserved. > >------------------------------------------------------------------- > From owner-public@setileague.org Fri Sep 2 20:06:22 2005 Received: from seti1.setileague.org (seti1.setileague.org [204.176.91.10]) by Sentry.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j82K6Lxn017192 for ; Fri, 2 Sep 2005 20:06:21 GMT Received: (from majordom@localhost) by seti1.setileague.org (8.9.3 (PHNE_24419+JAGae58098)/8.9.3) id PAA21899 for public-list; Fri, 2 Sep 2005 15:57:25 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: seti1.setileague.org: majordom set sender to owner-public@seti1.setileague.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (bay103-f20.bay103.hotmail.com [65.54.174.30]) by seti1.setileague.org (8.9.3 (PHNE_24419+JAGae58098)/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA21895; Fri, 2 Sep 2005 15:57:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 2 Sep 2005 12:56:51 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 65.54.174.200 by by103fd.bay103.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 02 Sep 2005 19:56:51 GMT X-Originating-IP: [65.54.174.200] X-Originating-Email: [ljk4@msn.com] X-Sender: ljk4@msn.com From: "LARRY KLAES" To: public@setileague.org Cc: bioastro@setileague.org Subject: SETI public: FW: [NOVA] "Origins: Where Are The Aliens?" Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2005 15:56:51 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Sep 2005 19:56:51.0669 (UTC) FILETIME=[76049850:01C5AFF8] Sender: owner-public@setileague.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on Sentry.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.5 tests=MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER autolearn=failed version=3.0.4 >From: owner-nova-online@franz.wgbh.org (NOVA) >To: nova-online@franz.wgbh.org (NOVA Bulletin) >Subject: [NOVA] "Origins: Where Are The Aliens?" >Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2005 15:39:29 -0400 (EDT) > >_____________________________________________________________________ >Next on NOVA: "Origins: Where Are The Aliens?" > >http://www.pbs.org/nova/origins/ > >Broadcast: September 6, 2005 at 8 p.m. ET/PT -- Repeat >(NOVA airs Tuesdays on PBS at 8 p.m. Check your local listings as >dates and times may vary.) > >"Where Are The Aliens?" is the third hour of NOVA's four-part >miniseries, "Origins." In this episode, NOVA and host Neil deGrasse >Tyson explore such provocative questions as: would extraterrestrial >life resemble us or the creatures of science fiction? Are there >"aliens" already amongst us on Planet Earth -- brainy creatures >whose intelligence is very different from our own? And are planets >on which life can flourish rare or common in our universe? > >For related articles, interactives, interviews, slide shows, and >more, visit "Origins" online at > >http://www.pbs.org/nova/origins/ > >_____________________________________________________________________ >_____________________________________________________________________ > >Thank you for visiting NOVA on the Web. We welcome your questions, >comments, and feedback. You can send a message directly to >nova@wgbh.org, or use our feedback form at >http://www.pbs.org/nova/feedback/ > >You are subscribed to the NOVA Bulletin. To unsubscribe, go to >http://www.pbs.org/nova/mailing/unsubscribe.html -- or send an >e-mail to majordomo@franz.wgbh.org and, on a line by itself in the >message, type: unsubscribe nova-online > >Major funding for NOVA is provided by Sprint and Google. Additional >funding provided by the Corporation for Public Broadcasting and >viewers like you. > >Major funding for "Origins" is provided by the National Science >Foundation. Additional funding for "Origins" is provided by NASA's >Office of Space Science and the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation. >_____________________________________________________________________ From owner-public@setileague.org Sat Sep 3 21:38:49 2005 Received: from seti1.setileague.org (seti1.setileague.org [204.176.91.10]) by Sentry.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j83LcmIu015669 for ; Sat, 3 Sep 2005 21:38:48 GMT Received: (from majordom@localhost) by seti1.setileague.org (8.9.3 (PHNE_24419+JAGae58098)/8.9.3) id RAA01668 for public-list; Sat, 3 Sep 2005 17:30:38 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: seti1.setileague.org: majordom set sender to owner-public@seti1.setileague.org using -f Received: from krypton2.melitacable.com (smtp.onvol.net [212.56.128.131]) by seti1.setileague.org (8.9.3 (PHNE_24419+JAGae58098)/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA01664 for ; Sat, 3 Sep 2005 17:30:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from vol.net.mt (ppp-130-71-dial3.as.vol.net.mt [212.56.130.71] (may be forged)) by krypton2.melitacable.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j83LTZZ4005118 for ; Sat, 3 Sep 2005 23:29:37 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <431A1577.B6BCA694@vol.net.mt> Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2005 23:28:24 +0200 From: Alex Michael Bonnici X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: setipublic Subject: SETI public: Remember This Post: Cyanobacteria found in a meteorite? Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------652C85F5ADB4A0482424D0F9" Sender: owner-public@setileague.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on Sentry.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.4 required=5.5 tests=FORGED_RCVD_HELO,HTML_30_40, HTML_MESSAGE,MIME_HTML_MOSTLY autolearn=no version=3.0.4 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------652C85F5ADB4A0482424D0F9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Gang, Remember this post from August 2004? Any recent updates either confirming or denying the claim? Alex --------------652C85F5ADB4A0482424D0F9 Content-Type: message/rfc822; name="nsmailFP.TMP" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="nsmailFP.TMP" Return-Path: Received: from viruswall (silver.melitacable.com [212.56.128.136]) by krypton.melitacable.com (8.12.3/8.12.3) with SMTP id i79EtNwj011151 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 2004 16:55:24 +0200 (MEST) Received: from 212.56.128.205 by viruswall (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Mon, 09 Aug 2004 16:55:13 +0200 Received: from klx.com (klx.com [161.58.236.65]) by mx01.melitacable.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id i79EuTjM021371 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 2004 16:56:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from klx@localhost) by klx.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) id i79EcUT3019273 for europa-outgoing; Mon, 9 Aug 2004 08:38:30 -0600 (MDT) X-Authentication-Warning: klx.com: klx set sender to owner-europa@klx.com using -f Received: from hotmail.com (bay4-dav29.bay4.hotmail.com [65.54.171.59]) by klx.com (8.12.11/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i79EcTs5019265 for ; Mon, 9 Aug 2004 08:38:30 -0600 (MDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 9 Aug 2004 07:38:28 -0700 Received: from 63.159.49.58 by bay4-dav29.bay4.hotmail.com with DAV; Mon, 09 Aug 2004 14:38:28 +0000 X-Originating-IP: [63.159.49.58] X-Originating-Email: [ljk4@msn.com] X-Sender: ljk4@msn.com From: "LARRY KLAES" To: "setipublic" Cc: "BioAstro" , "europa" Subject: Cyanobacteria found in a meteorite? Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 10:38:25 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPartTM-000-0548edff-0646-4ca4-98a4-a99bb990a9fd" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: MSN 9 X-MimeOLE: Produced By MSN MimeOLE V9.10.0006.2205 Seal-Send-Time: Mon, 9 Aug 2004 10:38:25 -0400 Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Aug 2004 14:38:28.0897 (UTC) FILETIME=[89302910:01C47E1E] Sender: owner-europa@klx.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: europa@klx.com Errors-To: jeff@klx.com X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPartTM-000-0548edff-0646-4ca4-98a4-a99bb990a9fd Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0021_01C47DFD.000768E0" ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C47DFD.000768E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable NEWS FROM THE SPIE CONFERENCE IN DENVER, 2-3 AUG 2004: Cyanobacteria found in a meteorite: At a conference in Denver today [2 Aug 2004], NASA's Richard Hoover = announced evidence of a fossilized cyanobacterial mat in the Orgueil = carbonaceous meteorite. His pictures of forms in the meteorite were = indistinguishable from known, Earthly fossilized cyanobacteria such as = phormidium tenuissimum. The images from Orgueil were taken in July, = 2004, using Environmental- and Field Emission Scanning Electron = Microscopy at NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center in Huntsville, = Alabama.=20 Other fossilized bacteria have been found in meteorites, including = Orgueil, before now (see related webpages linked [at panspermia.org = website].) But the possibility that Earthly bacteria could have = colonized the meteorites and left fossils in them after they arrived = leaves room for doubt within the scientific establishment today. = Contamination is not a possible cause now however, because the observed = cyanobactera, on Earth, form their mats only under water on surfaces = exposed to sunlight. This fragment of Orgueil was not under water on = Earth (it would have dissolved), nor was its interior open and exposed = to sunlight on Earth before now. Furthermore, the newly seen fossils are = not isolated single cells, but whole ecologies. They must have grown on = the meteorite's parent body before it fell.=20 Participants at the SPIE Conference in Denver who saw the new images = agreed that Hoover's evidence is momentous. Photos and updates will be = posted here when available. http://www.panspermia.org/whatsnew.htm#0400802 from Brig Klyce Astrobiology Research Trust=20 ________________________________________________________________ Sent via the WebMail system at panspermia.org =20 =20 ------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C47DFD.000768E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
NEWS FROM THE SPIE CONFERENCE IN DENVER, 2-3 AUG = 2004:

Cyanobacteria=20 found in a meteorite:

At a conference in Denver today [2 Aug = 2004],=20 NASA's Richard Hoover announced evidence of a fossilized cyanobacterial = mat in=20 the Orgueil carbonaceous meteorite. His pictures of forms in the = meteorite were=20 indistinguishable from known, Earthly fossilized cyanobacteria such as=20 phormidium tenuissimum. The images from Orgueil were taken in July, = 2004, using=20 Environmental- and Field Emission Scanning Electron Microscopy at NASA's = Marshall Space Flight Center in Huntsville, Alabama.

Other = fossilized=20 bacteria have been found in meteorites, including Orgueil, before now = (see=20 related webpages linked [at panspermia.org website].) But the = possibility that=20 Earthly bacteria could have colonized the meteorites and left fossils in = them=20 after they arrived leaves room for doubt within the scientific = establishment=20 today. Contamination is not a possible cause now however, because the = observed=20 cyanobactera, on Earth, form their mats only under water on surfaces = exposed to=20 sunlight. This fragment of Orgueil was not under water on Earth (it = would have=20 dissolved), nor was its interior open and exposed to sunlight on Earth = before=20 now. Furthermore, the newly seen fossils are not isolated single cells, = but=20 whole ecologies. They must have grown on the meteorite's parent body = before it=20 fell.

Participants at the SPIE Conference in Denver who saw the = new=20 images agreed that Hoover's evidence is momentous. Photos and updates = will be=20 posted here when available.

http://www.panspe= rmia.org/whatsnew.htm#0400802

from=20 Brig Klyce
Astrobiology Research Trust=20




_____________________________________________________= ___________
Sent=20 via the WebMail system at=20 panspermia.org


 
      &= nbsp;           =20
------=_NextPart_000_0021_01C47DFD.000768E0-- == You are subscribed to the Europa Icepick mailing list: europa@klx.com Project information and list (un)subscribe info: http://klx.com/europa/ ------=_NextPartTM-000-0548edff-0646-4ca4-98a4-a99bb990a9fd-- --------------652C85F5ADB4A0482424D0F9-- From owner-public@setileague.org Sun Sep 4 05:33:56 2005 Received: from seti1.setileague.org (seti1.setileague.org [204.176.91.10]) by Sentry.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j845Xtxo017558 for ; Sun, 4 Sep 2005 05:33:56 GMT Received: (from majordom@localhost) by seti1.setileague.org (8.9.3 (PHNE_24419+JAGae58098)/8.9.3) id BAA13724 for public-list; Sun, 4 Sep 2005 01:25:10 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: seti1.setileague.org: majordom set sender to owner-public@seti1.setileague.org using -f Received: from host224.ipowerweb.com ([66.235.220.224]) by seti1.setileague.org (8.9.3 (PHNE_24419+JAGae58098)/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA13720 for ; Sun, 4 Sep 2005 01:25:07 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cpe-66-27-116-71.san.res.rr.com ([66.27.116.71] helo=Zeke) by host224.ipowerweb.com with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EBmzX-0008BU-GX for public@setileague.org; Sat, 03 Sep 2005 22:24:31 -0700 Message-ID: <000e01c5b110$f9360fb0$887ba8c0@Zeke> From: "James Brown" To: "Public SETI-League" Subject: SETI public: Choose Up Sides Date: Sat, 3 Sep 2005 22:24:50 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000B_01C5B0D6.4CA52B30" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1506 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1506 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - host224.ipowerweb.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - setileague.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - seti.net X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Sender: owner-public@setileague.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on Sentry.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.5 tests=HTML_60_70,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=failed version=3.0.4 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C5B0D6.4CA52B30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I will not allow them to redefine my work to suit themselves. When you hear things like: "SETI is an attempt to identify intelligent design in radio signals from = outer space, signals with an intelligent origin rather than a natural = origin,"=20 http://sltrib.com/ci_2997771=20 Its time to chose sides. Do not let it go unchallenged... Argus Station: DM12jb James Brown W6KYP Jim@SETI.Net [put 'SETI' in subject line] www.seti.net ------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C5B0D6.4CA52B30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I will not allow them to redefine my = work to suit=20 themselves.
 
When you hear things like:
"SETI is an attempt to identify = intelligent design=20 in radio signals from outer space, signals with an intelligent origin = rather=20 than a natural origin,"
http://sltrib.com/ci_2997771&nb= sp;
 
Its time to chose sides.  Do not = let it go=20 unchallenged...
 
Argus Station: DM12jb
James = Brown
W6KYP
Jim@SETI.Net [put 'SETI' in subject = line]
www.seti.net
------=_NextPart_000_000B_01C5B0D6.4CA52B30-- From owner-public@setileague.org Sun Sep 4 18:54:36 2005 Received: from seti1.setileague.org (seti1.setileague.org [204.176.91.10]) by Sentry.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j84Isakj021510 for ; Sun, 4 Sep 2005 18:54:36 GMT Received: (from majordom@localhost) by seti1.setileague.org (8.9.3 (PHNE_24419+JAGae58098)/8.9.3) id OAA03953 for public-list; Sun, 4 Sep 2005 14:44:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: seti1.setileague.org: majordom set sender to owner-public@seti1.setileague.org using -f Received: from smtpgate.email.arizona.edu (deagol.email.Arizona.EDU [128.196.133.142]) by seti1.setileague.org (8.9.3 (PHNE_24419+JAGae58098)/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA03949 for ; Sun, 4 Sep 2005 14:44:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (eowyn.email.arizona.edu [10.0.0.221]) by smtpgate.email.arizona.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE16AB15691 for ; Sun, 4 Sep 2005 11:44:00 -0700 (MST) Received: from [10.0.0.122] (unknown [64.119.43.102]) by smtpgate.email.arizona.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 210BBB14361 for ; Sun, 4 Sep 2005 11:44:00 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <431B4067.1020106@email.arizona.edu> Date: Sun, 04 Sep 2005 11:43:51 -0700 From: cosmo User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird 1.0.6 (X11/20050821) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: public@setileague.org Subject: Re: SETI public: Choose Up Sides References: <000e01c5b110$f9360fb0$887ba8c0@Zeke> In-Reply-To: <000e01c5b110$f9360fb0$887ba8c0@Zeke> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at email.arizona.edu Sender: owner-public@setileague.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on Sentry.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.5 tests=none autolearn=failed version=3.0.4 Wow If he could possibly identify, in any way, how an intelligent communication through interstellar space is somehow caused by an underlying darwinian process, then he would have a valid analogy. Since the origin of a signal would be an intelligent lifeform however, his logic suggests that all manmade mathematics and physical sciences are also classified as an intelligent design. These ID theorists have a tendency to make everything seem to work with their mixed thinking. The funny thing is, if we assume that all intelligent lifeforms are the result of an underlying darwinian process, does this imply that all creations of an intelligent lifeform are themselves a product of evolution, or an intelligent creator as these folks would prefer to see it? Why would a god give us a brain in the first place? James Brown wrote: > I will not allow them to redefine my work to suit themselves. > > When you hear things like: > "SETI is an attempt to identify intelligent design in radio signals > from outer space, signals with an intelligent origin rather than a > natural origin," > http://sltrib.com/ci_2997771 > > Its time to chose sides. Do not let it go unchallenged... > > Argus Station: DM12jb > James Brown > W6KYP > Jim@SETI.Net [put 'SETI' in subject line] > www.seti.net From owner-public@setileague.org Mon Sep 5 12:55:50 2005 Received: from seti1.setileague.org (seti1.setileague.org [204.176.91.10]) by Sentry.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j85CtnHt025965 for ; Mon, 5 Sep 2005 12:55:49 GMT Received: (from majordom@localhost) by seti1.setileague.org (8.9.3 (PHNE_24419+JAGae58098)/8.9.3) id IAA00119 for public-list; Mon, 5 Sep 2005 08:37:27 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: seti1.setileague.org: majordom set sender to owner-public@seti1.setileague.org using -f Received: from imo-m23.mx.aol.com (imo-m23.mx.aol.com [64.12.137.4]) by seti1.setileague.org (8.9.3 (PHNE_24419+JAGae58098)/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA00115 for ; Mon, 5 Sep 2005 08:37:25 -0400 (EDT) From: MarcusJohn@aol.com Received: from MarcusJohn@aol.com by imo-m23.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r4.1.) id z.db.2d063be1 (4320) for ; Mon, 5 Sep 2005 08:36:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 08:36:47 EDT Subject: Re: SETI public: Choose Up Sides To: public@setileague.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1125923807" X-Mailer: 9.0 Security Edition for Windows sub 5200 Sender: owner-public@setileague.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on Sentry.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.2 required=5.5 tests=HTML_30_40,HTML_MESSAGE, NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=3.0.4 -------------------------------1125923807 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lighten up guys. We all have our reasons for supporting the notion of SETI. We should attempt to accept the ID movement as people who might have an interest in SETI, as much as we might, for instance, accept that the UFO folks have in interest as well. It wouldn't hurt to have their support. I think that the Evangelical Christians, and evangelists and proselytizers of all faiths would have an interest as well. Just think of all the souls on other planets that could be saved. Remember, it is statistically unlikely that Earth is alone in the universe. This fact affects different people differently. The ID people are allowed to have an opinion about what SETI is, and what it means to them. Also, most mathematicians believe that mathematics is "discovered" and not "made". Refer to: _http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_mathematics_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_mathematics) If mathematics is "discovered" and not "made", then two points are importa nt: 1. How did it get made. I think the ID folks have a thought or two on this. They think God made it. 2. Other intelligent species can discover the same mathematics, and therefore math should be a universal language with them. Maybe we could start with binary integers and go from there. John. In a message dated 9/4/2005 2:51:01 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, cosmicjo@email.arizona.edu writes: Wow If he could possibly identify, in any way, how an intelligent communication through interstellar space is somehow caused by an underlying darwinian process, then he would have a valid analogy. Since the origin of a signal would be an intelligent lifeform however, his logic suggests that all manmade mathematics and physical sciences are also classified as an intelligent design. These ID theorists have a tendency to make everything seem to work with their mixed thinking. The funny thing is, if we assume that all intelligent lifeforms are the result of an underlying darwinian process, does this imply that all creations of an intelligent lifeform are themselves a product of evolution, or an intelligent creator as these folks would prefer to see it? Why would a god give us a brain in the first place? James Brown wrote: > I will not allow them to redefine my work to suit themselves. > > When you hear things like: > "SETI is an attempt to identify intelligent design in radio signals > from outer space, signals with an intelligent origin rather than a > natural origin," > http://sltrib.com/ci_2997771 > > Its time to chose sides. Do not let it go unchallenged... > > Argus Station: DM12jb > James Brown > W6KYP > Jim@SETI.Net [put 'SETI' in subject line] > www.seti.net -------------------------------1125923807 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Lighten up guys.
 
We all have our reasons for supporting the notion of SETI.
 
We should attempt to accept the ID movement as people who might have an= =20 interest in SETI, as much as we might, for instance, accept that the UFO fol= ks=20 have in interest as well. It wouldn't hurt to have their support.
 
I think that the Evangelical Christians, and evangelists and=20 proselytizers of all faiths would have an interest as well. Just=20 think of all the souls on other planets that could be saved.=20  
 
Remember, it is statistically unlikely that Earth is alone in the unive= rse.=20 This fact affects different people differently.
 
The ID people are allowed to have an opinion about what SETI is, a= nd=20 what it means to them.
 
Also, most mathematicians believe that mathematics is "discovered" and=20= not=20 "made".
 
Refer to: http://en.wi= kipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_mathematics
 
If mathematics is "discovered" and not "made", then two points are=20 important:
 
1. How did it get made. I think the ID folks have a thought or two= on=20 this. They think God made it.
 
2. Other intelligent species can discover the same mathematics, and=20 therefore math should be a universal language with them. Maybe we could= =20 start with binary integers and go from there.
 
John.
 
In a message dated 9/4/2005 2:51:01 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,=20 cosmicjo@email.arizona.edu writes:
<= FONT=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000=20 size=3D2>Wow

If he could possibly identify, in any way, how an=20 intelligent
communication through interstellar space is somehow caused= by=20 an
underlying darwinian process, then he would have a valid analogy. S= ince=20
the origin of a signal would be an intelligent lifeform however, his=20
logic suggests that all manmade mathematics and physical sciences are=20
also classified as an intelligent design. These ID theorists have a=20
tendency to make everything seem to work with their mixed=20 thinking.

The funny thing is, if we assume that all intelligent=20 lifeforms are the
result of an underlying darwinian process, does this= =20 imply that all
creations of an intelligent lifeform are themselves a=20 product of
evolution, or an intelligent creator as these folks would=20 prefer to see it?

Why would a god give us a brain in the first=20 place?







James Brown wrote:

> I wil= l=20 not allow them to redefine my work to suit themselves.
> 
&= gt;=20 When you hear things like:
> "SETI is an attempt to identify intelli= gent=20 design in radio signals
> from outer space, signals with an intelli= gent=20 origin rather than a
> natural origin,"
>=20 http://sltrib.com/ci_2997771
> 
> Its time to chose=20 sides.  Do not let it go unchallenged...
> 
> Argus= =20 Station: DM12jb
> James Brown
> W6KYP
> Jim@SETI.Net=20 <mailto:Jim@SETI.Net> [put 'SETI' in subject line]
> www.seti.= net=20 <http://www.seti.net>


 
-------------------------------1125923807-- From owner-public@setileague.org Mon Sep 5 15:53:52 2005 Received: from seti1.setileague.org (seti1.setileague.org [204.176.91.10]) by Sentry.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j85Frp4i026664 for ; Mon, 5 Sep 2005 15:53:51 GMT Received: (from majordom@localhost) by seti1.setileague.org (8.9.3 (PHNE_24419+JAGae58098)/8.9.3) id LAA04323 for public-list; Mon, 5 Sep 2005 11:45:04 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: seti1.setileague.org: majordom set sender to owner-public@seti1.setileague.org using -f Received: from host224.ipowerweb.com ([66.235.220.224]) by seti1.setileague.org (8.9.3 (PHNE_24419+JAGae58098)/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA04319 for ; Mon, 5 Sep 2005 11:45:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from cpe-66-27-116-71.san.res.rr.com ([66.27.116.71] helo=Zeke) by host224.ipowerweb.com with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ECJ8v-0006aW-Vs for public@setileague.org; Mon, 05 Sep 2005 08:44:22 -0700 Message-ID: <002b01c5b230$bd272240$887ba8c0@Zeke> From: "James Brown" To: "Public SETI-League" Subject: Re: SETI public: Choose Up Sides Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 08:44:44 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0028_01C5B1F6.10832AF0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1506 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1506 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - host224.ipowerweb.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - setileague.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - seti.net X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: Sender: owner-public@setileague.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on Sentry.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.1 required=5.5 tests=HTML_40_50,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=failed version=3.0.4 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C5B1F6.10832AF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John - I agree with everything you said. You are 100% correct. the = ID'ers should state their opinion on SETI and everything else. The = trouble is that's only where they start and the rest of their agenda is = very clear = (http://www.infidels.org/secular_web/feature/1999/wedge.html): First - Call into question any concept, writing or individual that = teaches "materialistic science" and to replace it with a science = consonant with Christian and theistic convictions. Second - Encourage and equip believers with new scientific evidence's = that support the faith, as well as to "popularize" our ideas in the = broader culture. Third - Cultural Confrontation and Renewal, Academic and Scientific = Challenge Conferences, Potential Legal Action for Teacher Training, and = Research Fellowship Program: shift to social sciences and humanities Folks this group is dangerous not only to SETI (a hobby for us so why = worry), to education (I don't have any children in school so why worry) = to our worlds scientific future (I'm an old guy anyway and gona die soon = so why worry). =20 Yes its important, Yes you and I must take a stand against ideas like = ID. They are not simply un-scientific they are anti-scientific. Speak = up... ----- Original Message -----=20 From: MarcusJohn@aol.com=20 To: public@setileague.org=20 Sent: Monday, September 05, 2005 5:36 AM Subject: Re: SETI public: Choose Up Sides Lighten up guys.=20 We all have our reasons for supporting the notion of SETI.=20 We should attempt to accept the ID movement as people who might have = an interest in SETI, as much as we might, for instance, accept that the = UFO folks have in interest as well. It wouldn't hurt to have their = support.=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C5B1F6.10832AF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
John - I agree with everything you said.  You are 100% = correct. the=20 ID'ers should state their opinion on SETI and everything else.  The = trouble=20 is that's only where they start and the rest of their agenda is very = clear (http= ://www.infidels.org/secular_web/feature/1999/wedge.html):
 
First - Call into question any concept, writing or individual that = teaches=20 "materialistic science" and to replace it with a science consonant with=20 Christian and theistic convictions.
Second - Encourage and equip believers with new scientific = evidence's that=20 support the faith, as well as to "popularize" our ideas in the broader=20 culture.
Third - Cultural Confrontation and Renewal, Academic and Scientific = Challenge Conferences, Potential Legal Action for Teacher Training, and = Research=20 Fellowship Program: shift to social sciences and humanities
 
Folks this group is dangerous not only to SETI (a hobby for us so = why=20 worry), to education (I don't have any children in school so why worry) = to our=20 worlds scientific future (I'm an old guy anyway and gona die soon so why = worry). 
 
Yes its important, Yes you and I must take a stand against ideas = like ID.=20 They are not simply un-scientific they are anti-scientific.  Speak=20 up...
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 MarcusJohn@aol.com
Sent: Monday, September 05, = 2005 5:36=20 AM
Subject: Re: SETI public: = Choose Up=20 Sides

Lighten up guys.
 
We all have our reasons for supporting the notion of SETI.
 
We should attempt to accept the ID movement as people who might = have an=20 interest in SETI, as much as we might, for instance, accept that the = UFO folks=20 have in interest as well. It wouldn't hurt to have their support. =
 
 ------=_NextPart_000_0028_01C5B1F6.10832AF0-- From owner-public@setileague.org Mon Sep 5 17:32:06 2005 Received: from seti1.setileague.org (seti1.setileague.org [204.176.91.10]) by Sentry.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j85HW6Q2027126 for ; Mon, 5 Sep 2005 17:32:06 GMT Received: (from majordom@localhost) by seti1.setileague.org (8.9.3 (PHNE_24419+JAGae58098)/8.9.3) id NAA06414 for public-list; Mon, 5 Sep 2005 13:23:56 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: seti1.setileague.org: majordom set sender to owner-public@seti1.setileague.org using -f Received: from web81703.mail.yahoo.com (web81703.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.37.134]) by seti1.setileague.org (8.9.3 (PHNE_24419+JAGae58098)/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA06410 for ; Mon, 5 Sep 2005 13:23:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 67164 invoked by uid 60001); 5 Sep 2005 17:23:23 -0000 Message-ID: <20050905172323.67162.qmail@web81703.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [64.148.25.145] by web81703.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 05 Sep 2005 10:23:23 PDT Date: Mon, 5 Sep 2005 10:23:23 -0700 (PDT) From: David Ocame Subject: Re: SETI public: Choose Up Sides To: Public SETI-League In-Reply-To: <002b01c5b230$bd272240$887ba8c0@Zeke> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-public@setileague.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on Sentry.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.5 tests=none autolearn=failed version=3.0.4 I'm afraid I cannot agree with John on this one. I've been following the ID movement for sometime now and Jim summed it all up very nicely. This is not a group to "lighten up" with. Teaching ID theory alongside Darwin's Theory of Evolution is only the start. They do wish to supplant it. Of course, that's ok, if they have something that provides a better description, a better model of the natural world. But, they don't or rather no one actually knows if they do because they offer nothing that is testable or falsifiable. I will choose sides on this. I've been arming myself with all manner of books and papers written by authors from Dawkins to Gould and everyone in between. I've also been reading the ID material. I suggest others do the same. It might come to all of us needing to articulate ourselves as well as possible. Which won't hurt, no matter the cause. My $0.02, Dave Ocame --- James Brown wrote: > John - I agree with everything you said. You are > 100% correct. the ID'ers should state their opinion > on SETI and everything else. The trouble is that's > only where they start and the rest of their agenda > is very clear > (http://www.infidels.org/secular_web/feature/1999/wedge.html): > > First - Call into question any concept, writing or > individual that teaches "materialistic science" and > to replace it with a science consonant with > Christian and theistic convictions. > Second - Encourage and equip believers with new > scientific evidence's that support the faith, as > well as to "popularize" our ideas in the broader > culture. > Third - Cultural Confrontation and Renewal, Academic > and Scientific Challenge Conferences, Potential > Legal Action for Teacher Training, and Research > Fellowship Program: shift to social sciences and > humanities > > Folks this group is dangerous not only to SETI (a > hobby for us so why worry), to education (I don't > have any children in school so why worry) to our > worlds scientific future (I'm an old guy anyway and > gona die soon so why worry). > > Yes its important, Yes you and I must take a stand > against ideas like ID. They are not simply > un-scientific they are anti-scientific. Speak up... > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: MarcusJohn@aol.com > To: public@setileague.org > Sent: Monday, September 05, 2005 5:36 AM > Subject: Re: SETI public: Choose Up Sides > > > Lighten up guys. > > We all have our reasons for supporting the notion > of SETI. > > We should attempt to accept the ID movement as > people who might have an interest in SETI, as much > as we might, for instance, accept that the UFO folks > have in interest as well. It wouldn't hurt to have > their support. > *********************************** *********************************** Dave Ocame, N1YVV Awards Chair The SETILeague, Inc www.setileague.org Stony Creek Observatory FN31og -72.834 longitude 41.272 latitude Member: The SETILeague, Inc. and, The Society for Amateur Radio Astronomy (SARA) and, The Planetary Society From owner-public@setileague.org Tue Sep 6 04:10:33 2005 Received: from seti1.setileague.org (seti1.setileague.org [204.176.91.10]) by Sentry.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j864AWVL031921 for ; Tue, 6 Sep 2005 04:10:33 GMT Received: (from majordom@localhost) by seti1.setileague.org (8.9.3 (PHNE_24419+JAGae58098)/8.9.3) id AAA20364 for public-list; Tue, 6 Sep 2005 00:02:56 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: seti1.setileague.org: majordom set sender to owner-public@seti1.setileague.org using -f Received: from krypton2.melitacable.com (smtp.onvol.net [212.56.128.131]) by seti1.setileague.org (8.9.3 (PHNE_24419+JAGae58098)/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA20298; Tue, 6 Sep 2005 00:01:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from vol.net.mt (ppp-130-210-dial3.as.vol.net.mt [212.56.130.210] (may be forged)) by krypton2.melitacable.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j8640KgK010166; Tue, 6 Sep 2005 06:00:22 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <431D140B.BC71D6E0@vol.net.mt> Date: Tue, 06 Sep 2005 05:59:11 +0200 From: Alex Michael Bonnici X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: setipublic , BioAstro Subject: SETI public: Move Over Silicon Valley and Make Room For Carbon Valley Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-public@setileague.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on Sentry.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.1 required=5.5 tests=FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=failed version=3.0.4 Hello Gang this just came in from another mailing list I belong to: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-1221303,curpg-1,fright-0,right-0.cms Prabhakar Bandaru lives a few hours from Silicon Valley. A few decades from now, chances are the place will be rechristened Carbon Valley. The materials engineering professor from the University of California at San Diego (UCSD) may have a significant role to play in the renaming. Last month, Bandaru and Apparao M Rao, a physicist at the Clemenson University, announced to the world how they fabricated the world's tiniest transistor made entirely of carbon nanotubes. To get a sense of how significant their work is, look around. At the soul of the traffic signal your car crosses to the washing machine that cleans your clothes and the computer this report was written on, lie a few million transistors. >From Silicon to Carbon Valley Regards, Alex From owner-public@setileague.org Wed Sep 7 20:51:37 2005 Received: from seti1.setileague.org (seti1.setileague.org [204.176.91.10]) by Sentry.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j87Kpb2F010002 for ; Wed, 7 Sep 2005 20:51:37 GMT Received: (from majordom@localhost) by seti1.setileague.org (8.9.3 (PHNE_24419+JAGae58098)/8.9.3) id QAA21159 for public-list; Wed, 7 Sep 2005 16:42:17 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: seti1.setileague.org: majordom set sender to owner-public@seti1.setileague.org using -f Received: from krypton2.melitacable.com (smtp.onvol.net [212.56.128.131]) by seti1.setileague.org (8.9.3 (PHNE_24419+JAGae58098)/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA21155; Wed, 7 Sep 2005 16:42:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from vol.net.mt (ppp-130-188-dial3.as.vol.net.mt [212.56.130.188] (may be forged)) by krypton2.melitacable.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j87KfE2p029092; Wed, 7 Sep 2005 22:41:15 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <431F501F.46EC1966@vol.net.mt> Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 22:39:59 +0200 From: Alex Michael Bonnici X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: BioAstro , setipublic , FPSpace Subject: SETI public: StarDrive Engineering Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-public@setileague.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on Sentry.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.1 required=5.5 tests=FORGED_RCVD_HELO autolearn=failed version=3.0.4 Hello Gang, I came across this web site for a company Archer Enterprises entitled "Stardrive Engineering" http://www.stardrivedevice.com/index.html . Well anyway they have a quote by a leading member of this mailing list by the name of Larry Klaes from a review he did one their publications : StarDrive Engineering. And they have him quoted first amongst a group of notables. Are these guys for real? Their Starship looks like something out of the movie "Forbidden Planet"!!! WOW WEEEEEE!!!!!! I am off to Altair IV see Robby the Robot!!!!! :) Alex " Of the many problems facing humanity in the 21st century, one of the most important to address is how to keep up with the energy and living space needs of our rapidly growing population . . . However, I found a hopeful outlook on our future in the book StarDrive Engineering by Mark R. Tomion. It details revolutionary concepts for giving us access to the stars and for powering civilization for ages to come." Larry Klaes Former Editor of SETIQuest Magazine A real tour de force! Hal Puthoff, Ph.D. Institute for Advanced Studies at Austin _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Thank you for the follow-up. Yes, I did receive my copy of StarDrive Engineering. I can only say . . . It is GREAT! Obviously, I'm still in the process of reading and digesting the contents . . . You've obviously spent a LOT of time and effort in producing this book. Thank you and please keep me informed of future developments. Thomas Walker Electronics Field Engineer "a.k.a. a very satisfied customer" _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ I think the underlying ideas are very clearly described, so that it is not necessary to have a Ph.D. in physics to understand the book. Andreas Ries, Ph.D. Materials Science _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ From owner-public@setileague.org Wed Sep 7 21:18:00 2005 Received: from seti1.setileague.org (seti1.setileague.org [204.176.91.10]) by Sentry.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j87LHxKi010208 for ; Wed, 7 Sep 2005 21:17:59 GMT Received: (from majordom@localhost) by seti1.setileague.org (8.9.3 (PHNE_24419+JAGae58098)/8.9.3) id RAA21911 for public-list; Wed, 7 Sep 2005 17:10:59 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: seti1.setileague.org: majordom set sender to owner-public@seti1.setileague.org using -f Received: from krypton2.melitacable.com (smtp.onvol.net [212.56.128.131]) by seti1.setileague.org (8.9.3 (PHNE_24419+JAGae58098)/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA21901; Wed, 7 Sep 2005 17:10:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: from vol.net.mt (ppp-130-188-dial3.as.vol.net.mt [212.56.130.188] (may be forged)) by krypton2.melitacable.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j87L9sDg000153; Wed, 7 Sep 2005 23:09:57 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <431F56D9.DB35BF46@vol.net.mt> Date: Wed, 07 Sep 2005 23:08:41 +0200 From: Alex Michael Bonnici X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: setipublic , BioAstro Subject: SETI public: Nano Machines Take Giant Leap!!!! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-public@setileague.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on Sentry.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.5 required=5.5 tests=FORGED_RCVD_HELO,PLING_PLING autolearn=no version=3.0.4 Also reported here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4223660.stm http://news.com.com/Nanotech+researchers+build+brawny+molecules/2100-7337_3-5852461.html -------------- http://www.linuxelectrons.com/article.php/20050907115934514 Nano Machines Take Giant Leap Wednesday, September 07 2005 @ 12:10 PM CDT Contributed by: Tommy General NewsUK - A key technological breakthrough led by the University of Edinburgh suggests that a futuristic world where people can move objects about "remotely" with laser pointers could be closer than we think. Chemists working on the nanoscale (80,000 times smaller than a hair's breadth) have managed to move a tiny droplet of liquid across a surface - and even up a slope - by transporting it along a layer of light-sensitive molecules. Scientists at Edinburgh, Groningen and Bologna are the first to manipulate tiny nanoscale machines (two millionths of a millimetre high) so that they can move an object that is visible to the naked eye. The team has shifted microlitre drops of diiodomethane not just across a flat surface, but also up a one millimetre, 12 degree slope against the force of gravity. It may be the tiniest of movements, but, in the emerging discipline of nanotechnology, it represents a giant technological leap forward. Although many scientists are working with so-called "molecular machines"- a process which involves making the parts of molecules move in a controlled fashion - the Edinburgh-led team is the first to make these machines interact with 'real world' objects. Until now, molecularmachines have operated in isolation within the laboratory, but this latest piece of research brings them into contact with the everyday world around us. The research team has developed a Teflon-like surface that is covered with synthetic molecular 'shuttles', the components of which move up and down by a millionth of a millimetre when exposed to light. The movement of droplets results from the change in surface properties after most of the shuttle molecules change position. The phenomenon is so efficient that it generates enough energy to move the droplet. In terms of scale, the process is mind-boggling: it is the equivalent of a conventional mechanical machine using a millimetre displacement of pistons to lift an object twice the height of the world's tallest building. Molecular machines are ubiquitous throughout biology (they make muscles move, for example), but making tiny artificial machines is not easy because the physics that govern how things behave at the molecular level is very different from conventional physics. That means the prospect of large objects being moved around remotely by lasers is still some way off, but this new study, reported in the current issue of Nature Materials journal, may prove useful for some'lab-on-a-chip' diagnostic techniques, or for performing chemical reactions on a tiny scale without test tubes. Principal researcher David Leigh, Forbes Professor of Organic Chemistry at the University of Edinburgh, said: "Nature uses molecular machines in virtually every biological process and, when we learn how to build and control such structures, we will surely find they have the potential to revolutionise molecular-based technologies, from health care to 'smart' materials. Molecular machines could be used to make artificial muscles, surfaces that change their properties in response to electricity or light or even - one day in the future - to move objects about a room using a laser pointer. These are not the self-replicating 'grey goo' nanorobots of science fiction, but rather the life enhancing technologies of tomorrow." From owner-public@setileague.org Thu Sep 8 01:17:32 2005 Received: from seti1.setileague.org (seti1.setileague.org [204.176.91.10]) by Sentry.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j881HV5A011831 for ; Thu, 8 Sep 2005 01:17:32 GMT Received: (from majordom@localhost) by seti1.setileague.org (8.9.3 (PHNE_24419+JAGae58098)/8.9.3) id VAA27088 for public-list; Wed, 7 Sep 2005 21:08:56 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: seti1.setileague.org: majordom set sender to owner-public@seti1.setileague.org using -f Received: from web81704.mail.yahoo.com (web81704.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.37.135]) by seti1.setileague.org (8.9.3 (PHNE_24419+JAGae58098)/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA27084 for ; Wed, 7 Sep 2005 21:08:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 38707 invoked by uid 60001); 8 Sep 2005 01:08:23 -0000 Message-ID: <20050908010823.38705.qmail@web81704.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [64.148.25.145] by web81704.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 07 Sep 2005 18:08:23 PDT Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 18:08:23 -0700 (PDT) From: David Ocame Subject: SETI public: QST Cover Plaque Award for Sept, 2005 To: public@setileague.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-public@setileague.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on Sentry.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.5 tests=none autolearn=failed version=3.0.4 Hi all, Today I had a few moments at lunchtime and was browsing the ARRL site when I realized that I can vote for my favorite article for the QST cover plaque award for the month it appears in QST. OK, maybe I should have known this, but there you have it. Anyway, I was thinking that there are a number of us here that are members of the ARRL and as such can cast a vote. Enough that if we all went and logged in to the Members Only section at: http://www.arrl.org/members-only/qstvote.html we might end up giving the SETILeague a much needed PR boost by voting for Paul's article: "SETI: the Role of the Dedicated Amateur". I also happened to think it was very well written and was the one article that caught my eye first in the Sept issue. Any thoughts? 73! Dave *********************************** *********************************** Dave Ocame, N1YVV Awards Chair The SETILeague, Inc www.setileague.org Stony Creek Observatory FN31og -72.834 longitude 41.272 latitude Member: The SETILeague, Inc. and, The Society for Amateur Radio Astronomy (SARA) and, The Planetary Society From owner-public@setileague.org Thu Sep 8 03:49:01 2005 Received: from seti1.setileague.org (seti1.setileague.org [204.176.91.10]) by Sentry.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j883n1dh012551 for ; Thu, 8 Sep 2005 03:49:01 GMT Received: (from majordom@localhost) by seti1.setileague.org (8.9.3 (PHNE_24419+JAGae58098)/8.9.3) id XAA00601 for public-list; Wed, 7 Sep 2005 23:43:12 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: seti1.setileague.org: majordom set sender to owner-public@seti1.setileague.org using -f Received: from imo-d20.mx.aol.com (imo-d20.mx.aol.com [205.188.139.136]) by seti1.setileague.org (8.9.3 (PHNE_24419+JAGae58098)/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA00597 for ; Wed, 7 Sep 2005 23:43:10 -0400 (EDT) From: MarcusJohn@aol.com Received: from MarcusJohn@aol.com by imo-d20.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v38_r5.3.) id j.144.4cb7b95b (4410); Wed, 7 Sep 2005 23:42:32 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <144.4cb7b95b.30510d27@aol.com> Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 23:42:31 EDT Subject: Re: SETI public: QST Cover Plaque Award for Sept, 2005 To: docame@sbcglobal.net, public@setileague.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-----------------------------1126150951" X-Mailer: 9.0 Security Edition for Windows sub 5200 Sender: owner-public@setileague.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on Sentry.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.2 required=5.5 tests=HTML_MESSAGE,NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=3.0.4 -------------------------------1126150951 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 9/7/2005 9:12:30 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, docame@sbcglobal.net writes: Any thoughts? Done it and voted. John KE3SW -------------------------------1126150951 Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In a message dated 9/7/2005 9:12:30 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,=20 docame@sbcglobal.net writes:
<= FONT=20 style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=3DArial color=3D#000000 size= =3D2>
Any=20 thoughts?

 
Done it and voted.
 
John
KE3SW
-------------------------------1126150951-- From owner-public@setileague.org Thu Sep 8 13:46:30 2005 Received: from seti1.setileague.org (seti1.setileague.org [204.176.91.10]) by Sentry.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j88DkU4a015300 for ; Thu, 8 Sep 2005 13:46:30 GMT Received: (from majordom@localhost) by seti1.setileague.org (8.9.3 (PHNE_24419+JAGae58098)/8.9.3) id JAA13308 for public-list; Thu, 8 Sep 2005 09:36:22 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: seti1.setileague.org: majordom set sender to owner-public@seti1.setileague.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (bay103-f38.bay103.hotmail.com [65.54.174.48]) by seti1.setileague.org (8.9.3 (PHNE_24419+JAGae58098)/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA13304 for ; Thu, 8 Sep 2005 09:36:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 8 Sep 2005 06:35:43 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 65.54.174.200 by by103fd.bay103.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 08 Sep 2005 13:35:43 GMT X-Originating-IP: [65.54.174.200] X-Originating-Email: [ljk4@msn.com] X-Sender: ljk4@msn.com From: "LARRY KLAES" To: public@setileague.org Subject: SETI public: FW: AstroAlert: Intense Solar Flare Prompts Warnings Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 09:35:43 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Sep 2005 13:35:43.0998 (UTC) FILETIME=[364D69E0:01C5B47A] Sender: owner-public@setileague.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on Sentry.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.5 tests=MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER autolearn=failed version=3.0.4 >From: Cary Oler >To: sun-earth@SkyandTelescope.com >Subject: AstroAlert: Intense Solar Flare Prompts Warnings >Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2005 23:23:21 +0000 (GMT) > >================================================================= >This Is SKY & TELESCOPE's AstroAlert for Sun-Earth Interactions >================================================================= > >A s t r o A l e r t > >07 September 2005 > >Solar Terrestrial Dispatch >www.spacew.com > > >INTENSE SOLAR FLARE PROMPTS WARNINGS > > A very strong class X17.1 solar flare exploded on the Sun at 17:40 >UTC >(1:40 pm EDT). This is a significant event. Very few solar flares ever >reach >the X-class rating, and far fewer ever exceed an X10 level. Only a few >solar >flares each solar cycle (a 10-year period) exceed an X10 rating. An X17 >solar >flare is 17 times more intense in x-rays than a class X1.0 (which is, by >itself, a very energetic event). This particular event was strong enough to >saturate one of the x-ray sensors on the GOES spacecraft and very nearly >saturated both sensors. This intense solar flare was visible in white-light >by observers at Holloman solar observatory in New Mexico. > > This event was associated with intense radio emissions and a strong >high-velocity coronal mass ejection that was ejected well to the southeast >of >the Earth. Despite the poor location of this event, there is a chance the >extreme western flanking edge of the associated shock wave may reach the >Earth sometime on 9 September. Prior to that time, energetic protons from >the >solar flare may begin reaching the Earth and result in an increase in the >radiation environment in the near-Earth space environment. Although no >significant geomagnetic or auroral storming is expected this time, >additional >possible major solar flares from this region during the next two weeks >could >easily provide the impetus for very strong space weather storms. > > The sunspot complex responsible for this event is an old "friend," by >the name of Region 10798, which was responsible for producing periods of >severe geomagnetic storming last month. It's longevity is impressive, as >most >sunspot groups do not survive this long. As it came into view, NOAA >assigned >a new number to this region. It will hereafter be known as Region 10808 >(nick >named Region 808). > > The fact that this region has produced such a powerful flare suggests >that it contains a complex magnetic topology. It is just now coming into >view >around the eastern limb of the Sun and is still too close to the limb to >discern any significant detail. We expect additional major flares and >possibly additional significant major flares of X10 or greater intensities, >during the next week. > > Region 808 will gradually rotate across the solar disk during the >next >two weeks. During that time, if it retains its volatility, it may produce >some serious effects at the Earth. The health of spacecraft may be >compromised if additional extreme events are observed. Power grids may >suffer >from induced currents caused by intense geomagnetic storms. Radio >communications may suffer from strong scintillation and absorption. And >large >regions of the Earth may be able to spot periods of auroral activity >("northern lights"). Region 808 will be best positioned to inflict strong >impacts on the Earth in approximately another 4 to 5 days, with maximal >effects possible from roughly 11 September through 18 September. Spacecraft >will remain vulnerable to potential strong space radiation storms through >to >about 23 September. > > It is perhaps produnt to note that these strong solar flares pose no >known significant health threat to humans on the Earth. There is a greater >threat to human health for astronauts on the International Space Station, >but >even they are relatively well protected in the heavily shielded regions of >the space station. The combined effects of the Earth's magnetic field and >the >ionosphere protect human activities on Earth. However, some sensitive >industries on the ground can be adversely effected, including electrical >power generation facilities, ionospheric radio communications, satellite >communications, cellular phone networks, sensitive fabrication industries, >and others. During the next two weeks, these industries may see an increase >in anomalous incidents that may be attributed to space weather effects. > > >** End of AstroAlert ** >================================================================== >AstroAlert is a free service of SKY & TELESCOPE, the Essential >Magazine of Astronomy (http://SkyandTelescope.com/). This e-mail >was sent to AstroAlert subscribers. If you feel you received it >in error, or to unsubscribe from AstroAlert, please send a plain- >text e-mail to majordomo@SkyandTelescope.com with the following >line -- and nothing else -- in the body of the message: >unsubscribe sun-earth e-mail@address.com >replacing "e-mail@address.com" with your actual e-mail address. >================================================================== From owner-public@setileague.org Thu Sep 8 15:53:52 2005 Received: from seti1.setileague.org (seti1.setileague.org [204.176.91.10]) by Sentry.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j88FrpiK016017 for ; Thu, 8 Sep 2005 15:53:51 GMT Received: (from majordom@localhost) by seti1.setileague.org (8.9.3 (PHNE_24419+JAGae58098)/8.9.3) id LAA16168 for public-list; Thu, 8 Sep 2005 11:39:51 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: seti1.setileague.org: majordom set sender to owner-public@seti1.setileague.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (bay103-f31.bay103.hotmail.com [65.54.174.41]) by seti1.setileague.org (8.9.3 (PHNE_24419+JAGae58098)/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA16158; Thu, 8 Sep 2005 11:39:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 8 Sep 2005 08:39:07 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 65.54.174.200 by by103fd.bay103.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 08 Sep 2005 15:39:06 GMT X-Originating-IP: [65.54.174.200] X-Originating-Email: [ljk4@msn.com] X-Sender: ljk4@msn.com From: "LARRY KLAES" To: fpspace@friends-partners.org Subject: SETI public: The Mystery of Cosmos 1 Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 11:39:06 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Sep 2005 15:39:07.0218 (UTC) FILETIME=[72F72320:01C5B48B] Sender: owner-public@setileague.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on Sentry.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.5 tests=MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER autolearn=failed version=3.0.4 The Mystery of Cosmos 1 http://www.space.com/adastra/adastra_cosmos_mystery_050907.html Hopes had been riding high for Cosmos 1, the Planetary Society's experimental solar space sail, as the launch date of June 21st drew near. Then something went wrong and the sense of wonder was replaced by a sense of frustration. From owner-public@setileague.org Thu Sep 8 16:37:06 2005 Received: from seti1.setileague.org (seti1.setileague.org [204.176.91.10]) by Sentry.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j88Gb60d016360 for ; Thu, 8 Sep 2005 16:37:06 GMT Received: (from majordom@localhost) by seti1.setileague.org (8.9.3 (PHNE_24419+JAGae58098)/8.9.3) id MAA17349 for public-list; Thu, 8 Sep 2005 12:27:54 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: seti1.setileague.org: majordom set sender to owner-public@seti1.setileague.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (bay103-f15.bay103.hotmail.com [65.54.174.25]) by seti1.setileague.org (8.9.3 (PHNE_24419+JAGae58098)/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA17344; Thu, 8 Sep 2005 12:27:51 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 8 Sep 2005 09:27:19 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 65.54.174.200 by by103fd.bay103.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 08 Sep 2005 16:27:19 GMT X-Originating-IP: [65.54.174.200] X-Originating-Email: [ljk4@msn.com] X-Sender: ljk4@msn.com From: "LARRY KLAES" To: public@setileague.org Cc: bioastro@setileague.org Subject: SETI public: An Infrared Hunt for Artificial Kuiper Belt Objects Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 12:27:19 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Sep 2005 16:27:19.0854 (UTC) FILETIME=[2F1C5CE0:01C5B492] Sender: owner-public@setileague.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on Sentry.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.5 tests=MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER autolearn=failed version=3.0.4 http://www.centauri-dreams.org/2005.08.28_...l#1125582509708 An Infrared Hunt for Artificial Kuiper Belt Objects "If extraterrestrials were to set up a colony in our Solar System, where would they choose to settle? Gregory Matloff and Anthony R. Martin make the case for the Kuiper Belt in a recent paper for the Journal of the British Interplanetary Society. Kuiper Belt Objects (KBOs) are, after all, easy to exploit as a resource base without the burden of a planet's gravity well. They are rich in volatile materials (more so than main belt asteroids), close enough to the Sun to harvest solar power, and far enough out that visits by those of us living in the inner Solar System would be few and far between. "Moreover, the orbits of KBOs are relatively unaffected by planetary perturbations. Matloff was intrigued enough by these factors to make a proposed infrared search of the Kuiper Belt the subject of a 2004 paper ("A Proposed Infrared Search for Artificial Kuiper Belt Objects," JBIS 57, pp. 283-287). His new paper follows this up with an examination of the characteristics that artificial KBOs ought to display, comparing these to known objects." From owner-public@setileague.org Thu Sep 8 19:52:33 2005 Received: from seti1.setileague.org (seti1.setileague.org [204.176.91.10]) by Sentry.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j88JqWDO020751 for ; Thu, 8 Sep 2005 19:52:32 GMT Received: (from majordom@localhost) by seti1.setileague.org (8.9.3 (PHNE_24419+JAGae58098)/8.9.3) id PAA21735 for public-list; Thu, 8 Sep 2005 15:45:07 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: seti1.setileague.org: majordom set sender to owner-public@seti1.setileague.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (bay103-f32.bay103.hotmail.com [65.54.174.42]) by seti1.setileague.org (8.9.3 (PHNE_24419+JAGae58098)/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA21731; Thu, 8 Sep 2005 15:45:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 8 Sep 2005 12:44:33 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 65.54.174.200 by by103fd.bay103.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 08 Sep 2005 19:44:32 GMT X-Originating-IP: [65.54.174.200] X-Originating-Email: [ljk4@msn.com] X-Sender: ljk4@msn.com From: "LARRY KLAES" To: public@setileague.org Cc: bioastro@setileague.org Subject: SETI public: Maybe we are surrounded Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 15:44:32 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Sep 2005 19:44:33.0542 (UTC) FILETIME=[BC89DA60:01C5B4AD] Sender: owner-public@setileague.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on Sentry.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.5 tests=MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER autolearn=failed version=3.0.4 Here is an article by G. Matloff that is quite similar to the previous one on searching for artificial KBOs. http://www.nidsci.org/essaycomp/gmatloff.html Relevant quote: "If starships have crossed to our solar system within past eons (perhaps accelerated by solar sails and decelerated by a combination of magnetic reflection of interstellar ions and solar sails), they may have created a myriad of artificial worldlets from asteroidal and cometary material. We may live within a "Dyson Sphere" (53) of millions of space habitats, each masquerading as a small comet nucleus or asteroid. "In the absence of directed radio transmissions from the extraterrestrials to the Earth, detection will be challenging, but not impossible. One method of detection might be a search for excess infrared emissions from asteroidal objects (5)." From owner-public@setileague.org Thu Sep 8 21:34:22 2005 Received: from seti1.setileague.org (seti1.setileague.org [204.176.91.10]) by Sentry.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j88LYLPH021216 for ; Thu, 8 Sep 2005 21:34:22 GMT Received: (from majordom@localhost) by seti1.setileague.org (8.9.3 (PHNE_24419+JAGae58098)/8.9.3) id RAA23923 for public-list; Thu, 8 Sep 2005 17:22:59 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: seti1.setileague.org: majordom set sender to owner-public@seti1.setileague.org using -f Received: from rockridge.uits.indiana.edu (rockridge.uits.indiana.edu [129.79.1.74]) by seti1.setileague.org (8.9.3 (PHNE_24419+JAGae58098)/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA23911; Thu, 8 Sep 2005 17:22:53 -0400 (EDT) From: foxd@indiana.edu Received: from nerd.uits.indiana.edu (nerd.uits.indiana.edu [129.79.1.96]) by rockridge.uits.indiana.edu (8.12.10/8.12.10/IUPO) with ESMTP id j88LMof3012060; Thu, 8 Sep 2005 16:22:50 -0500 (EST) Received: (from nobody@localhost) by nerd.uits.indiana.edu (8.12.10/8.12.10/IUPO) id j88LMouB011417; Thu, 8 Sep 2005 16:22:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from light-camera-server.electronics.indiana.edu (light-camera-server.electronics.indiana.edu [129.79.74.25]) by webmail.iu.edu (IMP) with HTTP for ; Thu, 8 Sep 2005 16:22:50 -0500 Message-ID: <1126214570.4320abaa25b9c@webmail.iu.edu> Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 16:22:50 -0500 To: Alex Michael Bonnici Cc: BioAstro , setipublic , FPSpace Subject: Re: SETI public: StarDrive Engineering References: <431F501F.46EC1966@vol.net.mt> In-Reply-To: <431F501F.46EC1966@vol.net.mt> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 3.2.1 X-Originating-IP: 129.79.74.25 Sender: owner-public@setileague.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on Sentry.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.2 required=5.5 tests=NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=3.0.4 I looked at the main page and the phrase "over-unity electronic dynamo" is an obscure way of saying propetual motion machine. 73, Daniel Fox KF9ET Quoting Alex Michael Bonnici : > > > Hello Gang, > I came across this web site for a company Archer Enterprises > entitled "Stardrive Engineering" > http://www.stardrivedevice.com/index.html . Well anyway they have a > quote by a leading member of this mailing list by the name of Larry > Klaes > from a review he did one their publications : StarDrive Engineering. > And they have him quoted first amongst a group of notables. > > Are these guys for real? Their Starship looks like something out of the > movie "Forbidden Planet"!!! WOW WEEEEEE!!!!!! I am > off to Altair IV see Robby the Robot!!!!! :) > > Alex > > " Of the many problems facing humanity in the 21st century, one of the > most important > to address is how to keep up with the energy and living space > needs of our rapidly > growing population . . . However, I found a hopeful outlook on > our future in the book > StarDrive Engineering by Mark R. Tomion. It details > revolutionary concepts for > giving us > access to the stars and for powering civilization for ages to > come." > > Larry Klaes > Former Editor of SETIQuest Magazine > > A real tour de force! > > Hal Puthoff, Ph.D. > Institute for Advanced Studies at Austin _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ > _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ > > Thank you for the follow-up. Yes, I did receive my copy of > StarDrive Engineering. I > can > only say . . . It is GREAT! Obviously, I'm still in the process > of reading and digesting > the > contents . . . You've obviously spent a LOT of time and effort > in producing this book. > Thank you and please keep me informed of future > developments. > > Thomas Walker > Electronics Field Engineer > "a.k.a. a very satisfied customer" _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ > _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ > > I think the underlying ideas are very clearly described, so > that it is not necessary > to > have a Ph.D. in physics to understand the book. > > Andreas Ries, Ph.D. > Materials Science _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ > From owner-public@setileague.org Thu Sep 8 21:34:45 2005 Received: from seti1.setileague.org (seti1.setileague.org [204.176.91.10]) by Sentry.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j88LYiAv021226 for ; Thu, 8 Sep 2005 21:34:44 GMT Received: (from majordom@localhost) by seti1.setileague.org (8.9.3 (PHNE_24419+JAGae58098)/8.9.3) id RAA24089 for public-list; Thu, 8 Sep 2005 17:29:09 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: seti1.setileague.org: majordom set sender to owner-public@seti1.setileague.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (bay103-f32.bay103.hotmail.com [65.54.174.42]) by seti1.setileague.org (8.9.3 (PHNE_24419+JAGae58098)/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA24085; Thu, 8 Sep 2005 17:29:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 8 Sep 2005 14:28:35 -0700 Message-ID: Received: from 65.54.174.200 by by103fd.bay103.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 08 Sep 2005 21:28:34 GMT X-Originating-IP: [65.54.174.200] X-Originating-Email: [ljk4@msn.com] X-Sender: ljk4@msn.com From: "LARRY KLAES" To: public@setileague.org Cc: bioastro@setileague.org Subject: SETI public: SETI politics Date: Thu, 08 Sep 2005 17:28:34 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Sep 2005 21:28:35.0313 (UTC) FILETIME=[44EC8610:01C5B4BC] Sender: owner-public@setileague.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on Sentry.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.5 tests=MSGID_FROM_MTA_HEADER autolearn=failed version=3.0.4 SETI politics --- Supporters of the search for extraterrestrial intelligence have had to walk a fine line to avoid being lumped together with UFO fanatics. Gregory Anderson wonders if, in the process, SETI researchers have put themselves in a box regarding interstellar travel. http://www.thespacereview.com/article/444/1 Review: Gaia Selene --- The need to settle the solar system has often been told in books, but less frequently in video. Douglas Jobes reviews the documentary "Gaia Selene", which makes the case for settling the Moon in order to save the Earth. http://www.thespacereview.com/article/445/1 Advocating colonization --- Why colonize the Moon, or anywhere else in the universe? Sam Dinkin writes that it's all about the children. http://www.thespacereview.com/article/443/1 From owner-public@setileague.org Thu Sep 8 22:09:05 2005 Received: from seti1.setileague.org (seti1.setileague.org [204.176.91.10]) by Sentry.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j88M9475021317 for ; Thu, 8 Sep 2005 22:09:05 GMT Received: (from majordom@localhost) by seti1.setileague.org (8.9.3 (PHNE_24419+JAGae58098)/8.9.3) id SAA24876 for public-list; Thu, 8 Sep 2005 18:02:54 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: seti1.setileague.org: majordom set sender to owner-public@seti1.setileague.org using -f Received: from web81709.mail.yahoo.com (web81709.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.37.140]) by seti1.setileague.org (8.9.3 (PHNE_24419+JAGae58098)/8.9.3) with SMTP id SAA24872 for ; Thu, 8 Sep 2005 18:02:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 17036 invoked by uid 60001); 8 Sep 2005 22:02:21 -0000 Message-ID: <20050908220221.17034.qmail@web81709.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [64.148.25.145] by web81709.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 08 Sep 2005 15:02:21 PDT Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 15:02:21 -0700 (PDT) From: David Ocame Subject: Re: SETI public: StarDrive Engineering To: setipublic In-Reply-To: <1126214570.4320abaa25b9c@webmail.iu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-public@setileague.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on Sentry.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.5 tests=none autolearn=failed version=3.0.4 Well, ordered a copy of it. I knew that if the author actually had plans for a working model he'd have built it himself, or formed a company to do it. But, it looks enertaining at least, and I've spent $25.00 on dumber things in my time. Dave --- foxd@indiana.edu wrote: > I looked at the main page and the phrase "over-unity > electronic dynamo" is an > obscure way of saying propetual motion machine. > > 73, > Daniel Fox > KF9ET > > Quoting Alex Michael Bonnici : > > > > > > > Hello Gang, > > I came across this web site for a company > Archer Enterprises > > entitled "Stardrive Engineering" > > http://www.stardrivedevice.com/index.html . Well > anyway they have a > > quote by a leading member of this mailing list by > the name of Larry > > Klaes > > from a review he did one their publications : > StarDrive Engineering. > > And they have him quoted first amongst a group of > notables. > > > > Are these guys for real? Their Starship looks like > something out of the > > movie "Forbidden Planet"!!! WOW WEEEEEE!!!!!! I am > > off to Altair IV see Robby the Robot!!!!! :) > > > > Alex > > > > " Of the many problems facing humanity in the 21st > century, one of the > > most important > > to address is how to keep up with the > energy and living space > > needs of our rapidly > > growing population . . . However, I found > a hopeful outlook on > > our future in the book > > StarDrive Engineering by Mark R. Tomion. > It details > > revolutionary concepts for > > giving us > > access to the stars and for powering > civilization for ages to > > come." > > > > Larry Klaes > > Former Editor of SETIQuest Magazine > > > > A real tour de force! > > > > Hal Puthoff, Ph.D. > > Institute for Advanced Studies at Austin _ > _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ > > _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ > > > > Thank you for the follow-up. Yes, I > did receive my copy of > > StarDrive Engineering. I > > can > > only say . . . It is GREAT! Obviously, I'm > still in the process > > of reading and digesting > > the > > contents . . . You've obviously spent a > LOT of time and effort > > in producing this book. > > Thank you and please keep me informed > of future > > developments. > > > > Thomas Walker > > Electronics Field Engineer > > "a.k.a. a very satisfied customer" _ _ _ _ > _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ > > _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ > > > > I think the underlying ideas are very > clearly described, so > > that it is not necessary > > to > > have a Ph.D. in physics to understand the > book. > > > > Andreas Ries, Ph.D. > > Materials Science _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ > > > > > *********************************** *********************************** Dave Ocame, N1YVV Awards Chair The SETILeague, Inc www.setileague.org Stony Creek Observatory FN31og -72.834 longitude 41.272 latitude Member: The SETILeague, Inc. and, The Society for Amateur Radio Astronomy (SARA) and, The Planetary Society From owner-public@setileague.org Fri Sep 9 14:15:08 2005 Received: from seti1.setileague.org (seti1.setileague.org [204.176.91.10]) by Sentry.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j89EF8J6026502 for ; Fri, 9 Sep 2005 14:15:08 GMT Received: (from majordom@localhost) by seti1.setileague.org (8.9.3 (PHNE_24419+JAGae58098)/8.9.3) id KAA15715 for public-list; Fri, 9 Sep 2005 10:05:17 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: seti1.setileague.org: majordom set sender to owner-public@seti1.setileague.org using -f Received: from plounts.uits.indiana.edu (plounts.uits.indiana.edu [129.79.1.73]) by seti1.setileague.org (8.9.3 (PHNE_24419+JAGae58098)/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA15711 for ; Fri, 9 Sep 2005 10:05:15 -0400 (EDT) From: foxd@indiana.edu Received: from nerd.uits.indiana.edu (nerd.uits.indiana.edu [129.79.1.96]) by plounts.uits.indiana.edu (8.12.10/8.12.10/IUPO) with ESMTP id j89E5Boj001760 for ; Fri, 9 Sep 2005 09:05:11 -0500 (EST) Received: (from nobody@localhost) by nerd.uits.indiana.edu (8.12.10/8.12.10/IUPO) id j89E5ClE022867 for public@setileague.org; Fri, 9 Sep 2005 09:05:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from light-camera-server.electronics.indiana.edu (light-camera-server.electronics.indiana.edu [129.79.74.25]) by webmail.iu.edu (IMP) with HTTP for ; Fri, 9 Sep 2005 09:05:12 -0500 Message-ID: <1126274712.4321969857c4d@webmail.iu.edu> Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 09:05:12 -0500 To: setipublic Subject: Re: SETI public: StarDrive Engineering References: <20050908220221.17034.qmail@web81709.mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <20050908220221.17034.qmail@web81709.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Internet Messaging Program (IMP) 3.2.1 X-Originating-IP: 129.79.74.25 Sender: owner-public@setileague.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on Sentry.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.2 required=5.5 tests=NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=3.0.4 What I read on the webpage appeared to be mostly doubletalk. I don't think the correctness of the physics is much concern to the author, just the generation of an income. 73, Daniel Fox KF9ET Quoting David Ocame : > Well, ordered a copy of it. I knew that if the author > actually had plans for a working model he'd have built > it himself, or formed a company to do it. > > But, it looks enertaining at least, and I've spent > $25.00 on dumber things in my time. > > Dave > > --- foxd@indiana.edu wrote: > > > I looked at the main page and the phrase "over-unity > > electronic dynamo" is an > > obscure way of saying propetual motion machine. > > > > 73, > > Daniel Fox > > KF9ET > > > > Quoting Alex Michael Bonnici : > > > > > > > > > > > Hello Gang, > > > I came across this web site for a company > > Archer Enterprises > > > entitled "Stardrive Engineering" > > > http://www.stardrivedevice.com/index.html . Well > > anyway they have a > > > quote by a leading member of this mailing list by > > the name of Larry > > > Klaes > > > from a review he did one their publications : > > StarDrive Engineering. > > > And they have him quoted first amongst a group of > > notables. > > > > > > Are these guys for real? Their Starship looks like > > something out of the > > > movie "Forbidden Planet"!!! WOW WEEEEEE!!!!!! I am > > > off to Altair IV see Robby the Robot!!!!! :) > > > > > > Alex > > > > > > " Of the many problems facing humanity in the 21st > > century, one of the > > > most important > > > to address is how to keep up with the > > energy and living space > > > needs of our rapidly > > > growing population . . . However, I found > > a hopeful outlook on > > > our future in the book > > > StarDrive Engineering by Mark R. Tomion. > > It details > > > revolutionary concepts for > > > giving us > > > access to the stars and for powering > > civilization for ages to > > > come." > > > > > > Larry Klaes > > > Former Editor of SETIQuest Magazine > > > > > > A real tour de force! > > > > > > Hal Puthoff, Ph.D. > > > Institute for Advanced Studies at Austin _ > > _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ > > > _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ > > > > > > Thank you for the follow-up. Yes, I > > did receive my copy of > > > StarDrive Engineering. I > > > can > > > only say . . . It is GREAT! Obviously, I'm > > still in the process > > > of reading and digesting > > > the > > > contents . . . You've obviously spent a > > LOT of time and effort > > > in producing this book. > > > Thank you and please keep me informed > > of future > > > developments. > > > > > > Thomas Walker > > > Electronics Field Engineer > > > "a.k.a. a very satisfied customer" _ _ _ _ > > _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ > > > _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ > > > > > > I think the underlying ideas are very > > clearly described, so > > > that it is not necessary > > > to > > > have a Ph.D. in physics to understand the > > book. > > > > > > Andreas Ries, Ph.D. > > > Materials Science _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ > > > > > > > > > > > > *********************************** > *********************************** > > Dave Ocame, N1YVV > Awards Chair > The SETILeague, Inc > www.setileague.org > > Stony Creek Observatory > FN31og > -72.834 longitude > 41.272 latitude > Member: The SETILeague, Inc. and, > The Society for Amateur Radio Astronomy (SARA) and, > The Planetary Society > > > > From owner-public@setileague.org Fri Sep 9 14:35:38 2005 Received: from seti1.setileague.org (seti1.setileague.org [204.176.91.10]) by Sentry.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j89EZcnx026569 for ; Fri, 9 Sep 2005 14:35:38 GMT Received: (from majordom@localhost) by seti1.setileague.org (8.9.3 (PHNE_24419+JAGae58098)/8.9.3) id KAA16234 for public-list; Fri, 9 Sep 2005 10:29:20 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: seti1.setileague.org: majordom set sender to owner-public@seti1.setileague.org using -f Received: from web81702.mail.yahoo.com (web81702.mail.yahoo.com [206.190.37.133]) by seti1.setileague.org (8.9.3 (PHNE_24419+JAGae58098)/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA16230 for ; Fri, 9 Sep 2005 10:29:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 62469 invoked by uid 60001); 9 Sep 2005 14:28:47 -0000 Message-ID: <20050909142847.62467.qmail@web81702.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [130.132.89.165] by web81702.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 09 Sep 2005 07:28:46 PDT Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2005 07:28:46 -0700 (PDT) From: David Ocame Subject: Re: SETI public: StarDrive Engineering To: setipublic In-Reply-To: <1126274712.4321969857c4d@webmail.iu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-public@setileague.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on Sentry.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.5 tests=none autolearn=failed version=3.0.4 A very apt assessment. As I said, I bought it for the [apparent] entertainment value, if any. I'll write a critique of it and submit it to Paul. Dave --- foxd@indiana.edu wrote: > What I read on the webpage appeared to be mostly > doubletalk. I don't think > the correctness of the physics is much concern to > the author, just the > generation of an income. > > 73, > Daniel Fox > KF9ET > > Quoting David Ocame : > > > Well, ordered a copy of it. I knew that if the > author > > actually had plans for a working model he'd have > built > > it himself, or formed a company to do it. > > > > But, it looks enertaining at least, and I've spent > > $25.00 on dumber things in my time. > > > > Dave > > > > --- foxd@indiana.edu wrote: > > > > > I looked at the main page and the phrase > "over-unity > > > electronic dynamo" is an > > > obscure way of saying propetual motion machine. > > > > > > 73, > > > Daniel Fox > > > KF9ET > > > > > > Quoting Alex Michael Bonnici > : > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello Gang, > > > > I came across this web site for a > company > > > Archer Enterprises > > > > entitled "Stardrive Engineering" > > > > http://www.stardrivedevice.com/index.html . > Well > > > anyway they have a > > > > quote by a leading member of this mailing list > by > > > the name of Larry > > > > Klaes > > > > from a review he did one their publications : > > > StarDrive Engineering. > > > > And they have him quoted first amongst a group > of > > > notables. > > > > > > > > Are these guys for real? Their Starship looks > like > > > something out of the > > > > movie "Forbidden Planet"!!! WOW WEEEEEE!!!!!! > I am > > > > off to Altair IV see Robby the Robot!!!!! :) > > > > > > > > Alex > > > > > > > > " Of the many problems facing humanity in the > 21st > > > century, one of the > > > > most important > > > > to address is how to keep up with the > > > energy and living space > > > > needs of our rapidly > > > > growing population . . . However, I > found > > > a hopeful outlook on > > > > our future in the book > > > > StarDrive Engineering by Mark R. > Tomion. > > > It details > > > > revolutionary concepts for > > > > giving us > > > > access to the stars and for powering > > > civilization for ages to > > > > come." > > > > > > > > Larry Klaes > > > > Former Editor of SETIQuest Magazine > > > > > > > > A real tour de force! > > > > > > > > Hal Puthoff, Ph.D. > > > > Institute for Advanced Studies at > Austin _ > > > _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ > > > > _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ > > > > > > > > Thank you for the follow-up. Yes, > I > > > did receive my copy of > > > > StarDrive Engineering. I > > > > can > > > > only say . . . It is GREAT! Obviously, > I'm > > > still in the process > > > > of reading and digesting > > > > the > > > > contents . . . You've obviously spent > a > > > LOT of time and effort > > > > in producing this book. > > > > Thank you and please keep me > informed > > > of future > > > > developments. > > > > > > > > Thomas Walker > > > > Electronics Field Engineer > > > > "a.k.a. a very satisfied customer" _ _ > _ _ > > > _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ > > > > _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ > > > > > > > > I think the underlying ideas are > very > > > clearly described, so > > > > that it is not necessary > > > > to > > > > have a Ph.D. in physics to understand > the > > > book. > > > > > > > > Andreas Ries, Ph.D. > > > > Materials Science _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ > _ _ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *********************************** > > *********************************** > > > > Dave Ocame, N1YVV > > Awards Chair > > The SETILeague, Inc > > www.setileague.org > > > > Stony Creek Observatory > > FN31og > > -72.834 longitude > > 41.272 latitude > > Member: The SETILeague, Inc. and, > > The Society for Amateur Radio Astronomy (SARA) > and, > > The Planetary Society > > > > > > > > > > > *********************************** *********************************** Dave Ocame, N1YVV Awards Chair The SETILeague, Inc www.setileague.org Stony Creek Observatory FN31og -72.834 longitude 41.272 latitude Member: The SETILeague, Inc. and, The Society for Amateur Radio Astronomy (SARA) and, The Planetary Society From owner-public@setileague.org Fri Sep 9 16:22:39 2005 Received: from seti1.setileague.org (seti1.setileague.org [204.176.91.10]) by Sentry.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j89GMcb5027150 for ; Fri, 9 Sep 2005 16:22:38 GMT Received: (from majordom@localhost) by seti1.setileague.org (8.9.3 (PHNE_24419+JAGae58098)/8.9.3) id MAA18589 for public-list; Fri, 9 Sep 2005 12:15:27 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: seti1.setileague.org: majordom set sender to owner-public@seti1.setileague.org using -f Received: from krypton2.melitacable.com (smtp.onvol.net [212.56.128.131]) by seti1.setileague.org (8.9.3 (PHNE_24419+JAGae58098)/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA18579; Fri, 9 Sep 2005 12:15:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from vol.net.mt (ppp-130-154-dial3.as.vol.net.mt [212.56.130.154] (may be forged)) by krypton2.melitacable.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j89GEDXp013346; Fri, 9 Sep 2005 18:14:19 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4321B488.3A350070@vol.net.mt> Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2005 18:13:00 +0200 From: Alex Michael Bonnici X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FPSpace , setipublic , BioAstro Subject: SETI public: [Bootes_Project] NOT ruling out the best scenario for the success of SETI! Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------F561555384C6374120983C58" Sender: owner-public@setileague.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on Sentry.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.3 required=5.5 tests=FORGED_RCVD_HELO,HTML_10_20, HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=3.0.4 --------------F561555384C6374120983C58 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello Gang, I tried forwarding this posting early today but, our mailing list does not except mailings in HTML format. Sorry about that folks. The arguments set forth here remind me of an essay (I think it was by David Brin) in a book edited by Ben Bova a couple of years back. The main topic of the essay was find are selves divided into two major (and may add extreme) camps. The Interstellar Flight Optimists: who are so optimistic about the feasibility of Interstellar spaceflight but are pessimistic about the possibility of finding extraterrestrial intelligence. One argument being they should have already been here by now. And then we find the SETI Optimists who are confident that we will stumble upon an extraterrestrial civilization using the techniques of Radio Astronomy but do not believe in the feasibility of interstellar spaceflight. I quite agree that this political divide into two extremist camps serves no one. We should be looking at the possibility of other search strategies including the possibility that they have been here already (I am not advocating -Chariots of the Gods here people but an honest to goodness second look at the possibility of Paleo SETI), they may be here now in the outer regions of the solar system or are using nanotechnology (or some other means) to observe us, in which case they are right under our noses, or up our noses for that matter, but we haven't notice them yet (no I do not believe in Alien Abductions). That's my 2 cents on this topic, I would love to hear your views on this subject. I really SETI has to really look at other search methods other than Radio Astronomy. Alex NOT ruling out the best scenario for the success of SETI! SETI, the Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence, has a fundamentally fascinating hypothesis. Not only do SETI researchers assume extraterrestrial life exists, which most mainstream scientists now take as a given, but they further theorize extraterrestrial civilizations exist that can be detected from Earth... [But:] ... By rejecting the possibility of interstellar migration, SETI researchers might be ruling out the best scenario for the success of their own enterprise. To be successful, humans must be doing SETI at the same time others are transmitting. Postulating unrelated species exchanging information and chattering away makes SETI a crapshoot. Postulating regular communication among related civilizations in several star systems makes a successful SETI effort not only more likely—it makes the effort more defensible. That, of course, would mean embracing interstellar flight as a possibility. --------------F561555384C6374120983C58 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit  
Hello Gang,
                I tried forwarding this posting early today but, our mailing list does not except mailings in HTML format. Sorry about that folks.

The arguments set forth here remind me of an essay (I think it was by David Brin) in a book edited by Ben Bova a couple of years back. The main topic of the essay was find are selves divided into two major (and may add extreme) camps. The Interstellar Flight Optimists: who are so optimistic about the feasibility of Interstellar spaceflight but are pessimistic about the possibility of finding extraterrestrial intelligence. One argument being they should have already been here by now.  And then we find the SETI Optimists who are confident that we will stumble upon an extraterrestrial civilization using the techniques of Radio Astronomy but do not believe in the feasibility of interstellar spaceflight.

I quite agree that this political divide into two extremist camps serves no one. We should be looking at the possibility of other search strategies including the possibility that they have been here already (I am not advocating -Chariots of the Gods here people but an honest to goodness second look at the possibility of Paleo SETI), they may be here now in the outer regions of the solar system or are using nanotechnology (or some other means) to observe us, in which case they are right under our noses, or up our noses for that matter, but we haven't notice them yet (no I do not believe in Alien Abductions).

That's my 2 cents on this topic, I would love to hear your views on this subject. I really SETI has to really look at other search methods other than Radio Astronomy.

Alex

NOT ruling out the best scenario for the success of SETI!
 

SETI, the Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence, has a fundamentally fascinating hypothesis. Not only do SETI researchers assume extraterrestrial life exists, which most mainstream scientists now take as a given, but they further theorize extraterrestrial civilizations exist that can be detected from Earth...

[But:] ... By rejecting the possibility of interstellar  migration, SETI researchers might be ruling out the best scenario for the success of their own enterprise. To be successful, humans must be doing SETI at the same time others are transmitting. Postulating unrelated species exchanging information and chattering away makes SETI a crapshoot. Postulating regular communication among related civilizations in several star systems makes a successful SETI effort not only more likely—it makes the effort more defensible. That, of course,  would mean embracing interstellar flight as a possibility. --------------F561555384C6374120983C58-- From owner-public@setileague.org Fri Sep 9 16:42:02 2005 Received: from seti1.setileague.org (seti1.setileague.org [204.176.91.10]) by Sentry.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j89Gg1xc027265 for ; Fri, 9 Sep 2005 16:42:02 GMT Received: (from majordom@localhost) by seti1.setileague.org (8.9.3 (PHNE_24419+JAGae58098)/8.9.3) id MAA18939 for public-list; Fri, 9 Sep 2005 12:30:44 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: seti1.setileague.org: majordom set sender to owner-public@seti1.setileague.org using -f Received: from krypton2.melitacable.com (smtp.onvol.net [212.56.128.131]) by seti1.setileague.org (8.9.3 (PHNE_24419+JAGae58098)/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA18919; Fri, 9 Sep 2005 12:30:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from vol.net.mt (ppp-130-154-dial3.as.vol.net.mt [212.56.130.154] (may be forged)) by krypton2.melitacable.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id j89GTYKs014504; Fri, 9 Sep 2005 18:29:34 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4321B824.CC0C7B02@vol.net.mt> Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2005 18:28:22 +0200 From: Alex Michael Bonnici X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: setipublic , BioAstro , ACC LIST , Carl Sagan List Subject: SETI public: [Bootes_Project] NOT ruling out the best scenario for the success of SETI! Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------2F675BB4E2529BAFE66DFC17" Sender: owner-public@setileague.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.0.4 (2005-06-05) on Sentry.net X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.2 required=5.5 tests=FORGED_RCVD_HELO,HTML_00_10, HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=3.0.4 --------------2F675BB4E2529BAFE66DFC17 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello Gang, I tried forwarding this posting early today but, our mailing list does not except mailings in HTML format. Sorry about that folks. The arguments set forth here remind me of an essay (I think it was by David Brin) in a book edited by Ben Bova a couple of years back. The main topic of the essay was find are selves divided into two major (and may add extreme) camps. The Interstellar Flight Optimists: who are so optimistic about the feasibility of Interstellar spaceflight but are pessimistic about the possibility of finding extraterrestrial intelligence. One argument being they should have already been here by now. And then we find the SETI Optimists who are confident that we will stumble upon an extraterrestrial civilization using the techniques of Radio Astronomy but do not believe in the feasibility of interstellar spaceflight. I quite agree that this political divide into two extremist camps serves no one. We should be looking at the possibility of other search strategies including the possibility that they have been here already (I am not advocating -Chariots of the Gods here people but an honest to goodness second look at the possibility of Paleo SETI), they may be here now in the outer regions of the solar system or are using nanotechnology (or some other means) to observe us, in which case they are right under our noses, or up our noses for that matter, but we haven't notice them yet (no I do not believe in Alien Abductions). That's my 2 cents on this topic, I would love to hear your views on this subject. I really think SETI has to really look at other search methods other than Radio Astronomy. Alex NOT ruling out the best scenario for the success of SETI! SETI, the Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence, has a fundamentally fascinating hypothesis. Not only do SETI researchers assume extraterrestrial life exists, which most mainstream scientists now take as a given, but they further theorize extraterrestrial civilizations exist that can be detected from Earth... [But:] ... By rejecting the possibility of interstellar migration, SETI researchers might be ruling out the best scenario for the success of their own enterprise. To be successful, humans must be doing SETI at the same time others are transmitting. Postulating unrelated species exchanging information and chattering away makes SETI a crapshoot. Postulating regular communication among related civilizations in several star systems makes a successful SETI effort not only more likely—it makes the effort more defensible. That, of course, would mean embracing interstellar flight as a possibility. --------------2F675BB4E2529BAFE66DFC17 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit  
Hello Gang,
                I tried forwarding this posting early today but, our mailing list does not except mailings in HTML format. Sorry about that folks.

The arguments set forth here remind me of an essay (I think it was by David Brin) in a book edited by Ben Bova a couple of years back. The main topic of the essay was find are selves divided into two major (and may add extreme) camps. The Interstellar Flight Optimists: who are so optimistic about the feasibility of Interstellar spaceflight but are pessimistic about the possibility of finding extraterrestrial intelligence. One argument being they should have already been here by now.  And then we find the SETI Optimists who are confident that we will stumble upon an extraterrestrial civilization using the techniques of Radio Astronomy but do not believe in the feasibility of interstellar spaceflight.

I quite agree that this political divide into two extremist camps serves no one. We should be looking at the possibility of other search strategies including the possibility that they have been here already (I am not advocating -Chariots of the Gods here people but an honest to goodness second look at the possibility of Paleo SETI), they may be here now in the outer regions of the solar system or are using nanotechnology (or some other means) to observe us, in which case they are right under our noses, or up our noses for that matter, but we haven't notice them yet (no I do not believe in Alien Abductions).

That's my 2 cents on this topic, I would love to hear your views on this subject. I really think SETI has to really look at other search methods other than Radio Astronomy.

Alex

NOT ruling out the best scenario for the success of SETI!
 

SETI, the Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence, has a fundamentally fascinating hypothesis. Not only do SETI researchers assume extraterrestrial life exists, which most mainstream scientists now take as a given, but they further theorize extraterrestrial civilizations exist that can be detected from Earth...

[But:] ... By rejecting the possibility of interstellar  migration, SETI researchers might be ruling out the best scenario for the success of their own enterprise. To be successful, humans must be doing SETI at the same time others are transmitting. Postulating unrelated species exchanging information and chattering away makes SETI a crapshoot. Postulating regular communication among related civilizations in several star systems makes a successful SETI effort not only more likely—it makes the effort more defensible. That, of course,  would mean embracing interstellar flight as a possibility. --------------2F675BB4E2529BAFE66DFC17-- From owner-public@setileague.org Fri Sep 9 20:06:15 2005 Received: from seti1.setileague.org (seti1.setileague.org [204.176.91.10]) by Sentry.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id j89K6ESp028180 for ; Fri, 9 Sep 2005 20:06:14 GMT Received: (from majordom@localhost) by seti1.setileague.org (8.9.3 (PHNE_24419+JAGae58098)/8.9.3) id PAA23650 for public-list; Fri, 9 Sep 2005 15:58:00 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: seti1.setileague.org: majordom set sender to owner-public@seti1.setileague.org using -f Received: from hotmail.com (bay103-f22.bay103.hotmail.com [65.54.174.32]) by seti1.setileague.org (8.9.3 (PHNE_24419+JAGae58098)/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA23646; Fri, 9 Sep 2005 15:57:58 -0400 (EDT) Rece