archiv~1: Re: SETI Off-topic Censorious Posts

Re: SETI Off-topic Censorious Posts

Mitchell Jones ( )
Mon, 16 Nov 1998 16:13:25 -0600

>Hi Mr. Jones ...
>I would like to ask You if You have checked with SOHO scientists
>to ask them about this series of pictures ... they may have the
>answer ... a simple one like dark current in the detector or maybe
>cosmic rays or something about the way the scanner read's the info
>or something simpler and less elaborate as a ship full of
>alliens ....

***{Frankly, these astonishing SOHO photos and their associated
interpretative difficulties were only pointed out to me a few days ago, and
I have not had time to get much feedback about them. The reason for my
posting of these links, in fact, is to elicit feedback. I am open to any
alternative theories anyone may care to toss at me. That's why I posted
those links on this list. It is only within the last month that I have
begun to seriously consider the possibility that all of this talk about
"flying saucers," "alien visitations," etc., may have enough factual basis
to be subject to scientific verification, and my opinions on this topic are
anything but firm. One thing does seem crystal clear, however: a supposed
"search for extraterrestrial intelligence" that, on principle, refuses to
consider the possibility that there may be aliens in our own solar system,
is little more than a fraud. Tentative hits from near the earth, or near
the sun, cannot reasonably be discounted without evidence. And if the
government simply asserts that something is a satellite, they must be
required to support their assertions with evidence. Too many people have
alleged that governments are trying to cover up the existence of ET's for
us to place them in the position to be the final arbiters of whether we
have a "hit" or not. --Mitchell Jones}***

>By the way ... how do You know that EQ Peg coordinates are very close
>to those of these so called "Sun Cruises" ... I didn't see any coord's
>in the pictures and I beleive PEGASUS is not in the ecliptic... It
>lies some 10 degrees above it ...

***{Actually, the coordinates of EQ Peg are RA 23h31m52s, DEC 19deg56m15s,
according to a reference I pulled off of the net. What the declination
number means is that EQ Pe lies almost 20 degrees above the plane of
Earth's equator. However, since the plane of the ecliptic is tilted at an
angle of 23.5 degrees to the plane of Earth's equator, the actual angular
distance between EQ Peg and the Sun varies throughout the year as the Sun,
from the point-of-view of the celestial coordinate system, swings about the
Earth. Now I do not have access to a program that would be capable of doing
an exact calculation of this sort, but from the perspective of simply
visualizing the situation that existed from Sept. 17 until the end of
October, when these various possible SETI hits occurred, it seems to me
that the "suncruiser" may have been in the vicinity of the line of sight
from Earth to EQ Peg. [Note: the first tentative SETI hit on EQ Peg was
noted at Arecibo (and later attributed to interference), on Sept. 17. Then,
on Oct. 22 "Paul Dore" made his claim, and, finally, the supposed
confirmations by K.F. Benton on Guernsey and Jay Oka in Japan occured as
the month of October drew to a close.] My reason for suspecting that the
"suncruiser" may have been involved in these various alleged SETI hits is
straightforward: by definition, a right ascension coordinate measures the
eastward rotation of the half plane beginning at the polar axis of the
earth, from a starting point at the vernal equinox to an end point
containing the celestial body of interest. Thus RA 0h0m0s applies to any
celestial body in the plane containing the vernal equinox--i.e., the
outward extension of the sun-earth line on about March 22. Since these
various alleged SETI hits occured with Earth near the autumnal
equinox--i.e., near the opposite side of its orbit--this means the Sun
would have been near RA 0h0m0s, which is not very far from the right
ascension plane of EQ Peg (RA 23h31m52s). [Note: RA 0h0m0s = RA 24h0m0s.]
Since nobody is paying any attention to the "suncruiser" or attempting to
follow its location, all we really know about it is that it is somewhere in
the vicinity of the sun, and thus I find it quite plausible that the 21 cm
signal is coming from it, or perhaps even from a relay beacon which it has
positioned on the line of sight from EQ Peg to the Earth, for that matter.

The latter possibility, by the way, is very interesting in itself. To
understand what I am getting at here, consider the following:

(1) SETI expects sophisticated broadband signals from planets orbiting
nearby stars, reflecting civilizations similar to our own which are still
in the phase where lightspeed RF transmissions are a favored form of
communication. However, note that an interstellar civilization must of
necessity have greater than lightspeed methods of travel and, thus, would
find radio transmission unsuitable to their purposes. (To grapple with such
a possibility, we must assume that Einstein's "universal speed limit" can
be somehow overcome, and that some method of signal transmission is
possible at speeds vastly in excess of the speed of light. Without it, the
existence of an interstellar civilization would not be possible.) The
implication: if representatives of such a civilization are in our own solar
system and use radio transmission, the purpose is to communicate with a
backward population such as the one here on Earth. This means they would be
unlikely to be familiar with the nuances of such systems, just as we are
unfamiliar with the nuances of communication via smoke signal, or the
fashioning of flint arrowheads. And that, in turn, suggests that to argue
that they would not use a simple carrier wave type of signal is invalid. We
are likely to be more sophisticated than the ET's in the areas of primitive
technology, just as they are going to be more sophisticated than us in the
area of advanced technology. Thus I would *not* expect the use of pulse
modulated signals. I would expect a basic, old fashioned AM signal with a
full-blown carrier wave, because that is the simplest form of radio

Moreover, simplicity is not the only reason for expecting this. If there is
truth to the thousands of reports of sightings of "flying saucers," "giant
triangles"--such as the mile wide "black triangle" that was sighted by more
than 15,000 people in Arizona last year and virtually ignored by the mass
media--then it would seem that ET's are struggling to get our attention,
and are not being very successful. In such a context, the putting up of a
simple carrier wave based radio transmission from a fixed celestial
coordinate such as EQ Peg would be a plausible communication attempt.

In the above connection, I am reminded of the struggle of the western
nations to get the attention of Japan, in the 1830's and 1840's. Nothing
seemed to work, because the shoguns did not want their people to know of
the existence of the west. The reason: they feared the cultural effects of
such information. Result: we finally had to basically hit them over the
head, which is what Commodore Perry did in 1853, when he sailed a fleet of
"black ships" into Tokyo Bay. The mile wide black triangle that took a
leisurely cruise over most of Arizona last year may have been the aliens'
attempt at something similar. Thus far, however, the ET's haven't found a
way to get past our wall of disbelief, maintained with the strong
assistance of world governments, who appear committed to a multi-billion
dollar campaign of misinformation and disinformation. The ET's may, in
fact, be on the verge of concluding that this is the planet of the retards.
If they do, then they may eventually throw up their hands in disgust and
decide to exterminate us and use this pretty planet for themselves. That
would be a fitting conclusion to our governments' attempts to keep us in
ignorance, given their history of screwing up virtually everything they

(2) Assuming that the "suncruiser" photos indicate the presence of an alien
starship near the sun, and that either it or a relay beacon which it has
sent out is the source of the "Paul Dore" signal, then we must consider the
possibility that the source is *not* in a classical inertial orbit. A
technology more advanced than our own might, for example, include
*antigravity*. In that case, it would be possible that this transmitter is
programmed to hover on the line of sight between earth and EQ Peg, to
provide a signal source at constant celestial coordinates, as viewed from
Earth. Such a signal source could be located anywhere on the line of sight
from EQ Peg to Earth.

The above possibility suggests that the carrier at 21 cm, if it is real, is
intended for the purpose of communicating with Earth. But why? Well, the
aliens may have secret confederates on Earth, and transmit information to
them via radio on that frequency. But, in that case, the carrier would not
be there except when it was being modulated to carry actual information.
Having it there in the unmodulated condition would invite discovery, and
hence would indicate that the purpose is *not* to communicate in secret
with confederates on Earth. Then what *is* the purpose? The answer is
obvious: the unmodulated carrier is there to invite discovery and, thus,
communication *with anybody on Earth*. The logical response would be to
beam a modulated signal back toward EQ Peg on that frequency, and see what
happens. I would try it in English: "Hello out there. We read your signal
loud and clear. Do you have anything to say to us? Over." If we got a
response, it would be the beginning of a mind-boggling adventure, and would
be guaranteed to transform the world.

Of course, these are merely possibilities. But pointing an amateur dish at
this signal and transmitting a response to see what happens is an
experiment to test these possibilities, and so this thread has already
progressed from the point of speculation to that of hard science. As such,
it is fully legitimate even by that standard, and those who claim that
discussion of this alleged hoax is off topic are out of line.

--Mitchell Jones}***

>it seems either You know to much about the hoax or about these SOHO
>images ...

***{What is your point--that I am the hoaxer, perhaps? Well now there's an
occasion for a good laugh! Hell, maybe *you* are the hoaxer! Can you prove
that you aren't? Maybe you are insinuating that it's me to divert attention
away from yourself! :-) --Mitchell Jones}***

>> Mitchell Jones wrote:
>> The only thing interfering with reasoned, scientific discussion in this
>> group is censorious posts which aim to narrow the focus of discussion to an
>> area--deep space SETI--where the odds against finding extraterrestrial
>> intelligence are simply overwhelming. In my view, a "search for
>> extraterrestrial intelligence" which refuses, on principle, to consider the
>> possibility that there are ET's in our own back yard, is little more than a
>> fraud. On the off chance that there may be some among you who are willing
>> to search a bit closer to home, here are some links for you to mull over:
>> (1)
>> (2)
>> (3)
>> (4)
>> (5)
>> (6)
>> (7)
>> (8)
>> (9)
>> The first link, above, will take you to a website containing SOHO photos of
>> a rather odd object which has been dubbed the "suncruiser." It looks to me
>> like a gigantic alien starship. If you think you have a better explanation,
>> I'm listening.
>> Links (2) through (7), above, will take you to SOHO time lapse photos in
>> which the camera lens was open for from 30 seconds to 7 minutes. During
>> those intervals, some moving object left ghostly tracks on the film and,
>> since its movement was clearly *not* following an inertial trajectory, the
>> most reasonable explanation would seem to be that some sort of alien
>> runabout, probably dispatched from the "suncruiser," was in the process of
>> observing SOHO when the pictures were taken, and happened to move through
>> the camera's field of vision. Again, if you think you have a better
>> explanation, I'm listening.
>> Links (8) and (9) are to a pair of photos that either show a dead alien, or
>> show the work of an unknown hoaxer who is far, far more talented than any
>> of the multi-million dollar creature-effects guys in Hollywood today. If
>> you can explain to me why a person with this much talent would hide his
>> candle under a basket, I'm all ears.
>> By the way, if you find these photos to be intriguing, I urge you to
>> download them into your machines while you can. I expect every one of them
>> to disappear from these sites in the near future.
>> As a footnote, I would suggest that you take due note of the fact that, on
>> Oct. 22 when "Paul Dore" got his alleged SETI hit, the line of sight from
>> his radiotelescope to EQ Peg was passing pretty close to the position of
>> the "suncruiser." Those among you who have access to privately owned
>> radiotelescope facilities would be well advised, in my opinion, to begin a
>> systematic search of that region of the sky to see if you can pick up the
>> signal in question.
>> --Mitchell Jones
>| Nombre: Jose Fernando Barral Caballero |
>| E-mail: |
>| |
>| Tel/Fax: (131) 5-12-15 |
>| Date: 14-Nov-98 |
>| Time: 16:20:00 CST |